Acceptable pairs betterball scores

[Swango1980]

This is the world WHS gives us.

A pair of golfers play 4BBB, both score a 4, both put their score on the scorecard, and if they keep doing this we are told they should be sanctioned!???? Why? To make the admin easier for organisers, because they don't know which 4 counted!?

That, in my opinion, is a disgrace. And does nothing to make the game more appealing. Putting 2 scores on a scorecard will nearly become a crime equal to kicking your ball out of the rough, both worthy of sanctioning golfers

How about common sense, where if both score a 4, they can both put their score on the card, and it is logical to assume that both players would have had a counting score, regardless of what the other did or did not do? Thus, if 2 players matched their nett scores on 10 holes, for example, they both will have more than 10 counting scores and they can both have the round counting towards handicap? Or did the authorities not take into account that occasionally a pair of golfers will get the same score on a hole when coming up with their "genius" approach to deal with 4BBB scores for handicapping?

 

[sjw]

How about common sense, where if both score a 4, they can both put their score on the card, and it is logical to assume that both players would have had a counting score, regardless of what the other did or did not do? Thus, if 2 players matched their nett scores on 10 holes, for example, they both will have more than 10 counting scores and they can both have the round counting towards handicap? Or did the authorities not take into account that occasionally a pair of golfers will get the same score on a hole when coming up with their "genius" approach to deal with 4BBB scores for handicapping?

That is what happens

 

[Swango1980]

That is what happens

I would have hoped so, but I have my doubts when reading some of the previous comments.

 

[wjemather]

Other than in Australia, the only sanctioning advice I have seen/heard relates to committees dealing with players causing slow play by insisting on holing out when they know they cannot score for the side, which would be covered by the Rules of Golf and Codes of Conduct, and has nothing to do with WHS.

And in Australia, the only sanction is that players scores can be disregarded for handicapping if both players scores are recorded persistently.

 

[sjw]

I would have hoped so, but I have my doubts when reading some of the previous comments.

Yes, if you both have the same score it counts as "contributing" to each player.

I'm a bit split on the topic at hand. I got my most recent cut from a 4BBB score, and I wasn't sure how it worked so I holed everything out. Therefore, I know what score I shot, but what shows up on EG is lower than that, and you can't see the hole-by-hole breakdown, because presumably it's just made a score up.

However, there are a lot of cries of "this aids banditry", especially from one user in particular. If your score is only applicable for handicap if you are below your handicap etc, then you're only going to get a cut from it. I'd love to know how that's banditry.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

This is the world WHS gives us.

A pair of golfers play 4BBB, both score a 4, both put their score on the scorecard, and if they keep doing this we are told they should be sanctioned!???? Why? To make the admin easier for organisers, because they don't know which 4 counted!?

That, in my opinion, is a disgrace. And does nothing to make the game more appealing. Putting 2 scores on a scorecard will nearly become a crime equal to kicking your ball out of the rough, both worthy of sanctioning golfers

How about common sense, where if both score a 4, they can both put their score on the card, and it is logical to assume that both players would have had a counting score, regardless of what the other did or did not do? Thus, if 2 players matched their nett scores on 10 holes, for example, they both will have more than 10 counting scores and they can both have the round counting towards handicap? Or did the authorities not take into account that occasionally a pair of golfers will get the same score on a hole when coming up with their "genius" approach to deal with 4BBB scores for handicapping?

Don’t think I have heard or seen of any sanctions of people putting in both scores on a 4BBB - can’t see what sanctions can be applied anyway

 

[Swango1980]

Don’t think I have heard or seen of any sanctions of people putting in both scores on a 4BBB - can’t see what sanctions can be applied anyway

It is a relief to hear this

 

[Arthur Wedge]

It is a relief to hear this

Only thing would be that any team holing out on every hole is that they keep up with pace of play

 

[Swango1980]

Only thing would be that any team holing out on every hole is that they keep up with pace of play

That's fine. I don't expect one player to hole out for a nett 3, while the other holes out for a 9. Or even any higher nett score, when they don't need to (albeit I'd prefer both players could simply play as individual stabo, and their scores would count for handicap as normal, but that obviously isn't how it works now)

I was just getting the impression from some that players could be sanctioned for both putting the same nett score, simply because there were 2 scores on the scorecard. I was worried that some organisers were demanding that only 1 score should appear on each hole. That would seem like bogus advice, if it will ultimately impact the handicap adjustment. Because, if players only put one score on the card, only one player might have the score impact their handicap. Whereas if they both put scores on the card, where they scored the same, both players could have a handicap cut.

 

[rulie]

I will always enter both scores on the card - it is just easier and less prone to error. If someone blobs, I put an "x" in the correct column.
Software is designed by people and should meet the needs of the majority, and should not be designed or used to complicate simple matters.
My two pence.

 

[IanM]

You're not wrong, but I tend to only mark one score, as it's easier to key a card with fewer numbers on it!

 

[Springveldt]

I will always enter both scores on the card - it is just easier and less prone to error. If someone blobs, I put an "x" in the correct column.
Software is designed by people and should meet the needs of the majority, and should not be designed or used to complicate simple matters.
My two pence.

Yep, just put both scores on the card and let the software do it's job.

As @Swango1980 said, what happens if both golfers tie on a hole, which one gets the counting score towards their total of holes contributed? Their isn't the option of "first in the hole" so does it just go to the first player on the card? Since you can get a cut now for 42 points and above while scoring on 9 holes I think it's actually important to put both scores in.

You would hope the software was written to take into acount that golfers can tie on a hole and both golfers should then have that count towards their contributed holes if you want to fairly cut people. Especially since the score given on a players none scoring hole is only 1.5 or 1 points when in reality they might have scored 2 points or more on their own.

 

[D-S]

Fro the Guidance to the Rules of Handicapping as applied within GB&I:-

"The standard approach to Fourball competition should continue to be used – as soon as the best score has been recorded, the other player should pick up in order not to impact pace of play.

Handicap Committees will be justified in disregarding scores for handicapping purposes where scores for both players are recorded on a significant number of holes on a regular basis."

 

[Springveldt]

Fro the Guidance to the Rules of Handicapping as applied within GB&I:-

"The standard approach to Fourball competition should continue to be used – as soon as the best score has been recorded, the other player should pick up in order not to impact pace of play.

Handicap Committees will be justified in disregarding scores for handicapping purposes where scores for both players are recorded on a significant number of holes on a regular basis."

So they have screwed up the scoring algorithm (or completely missed it) and players on a team can't tie a hole. First in the hole gets the full points and the other player even if they tie them will get 1.5 points or maybe only 1 point for that hole.

Yeah, that's not right if you want 4bbb to be acceptable for handicapping.

 

[D-S]

All I’m saying is that EG patently do not wish to have both scores recorded for handicapping on each hole.
Also the statement that Handicap Committees are “justified’ in applying the sanction of “disregarding” scores recorded in this way for handicapping is quite a big sanction.
As I have stated, if this is their intention, a software based solution would be better than the proposed woolly sanction as this is difficult to record and implement as such competitions are infrequent and often played away from home and with different partners and as such, I presume, rarely enforced.

 

[wjemather]

So they have screwed up the scoring algorithm (or completely missed it) and players on a team can't tie a hole. First in the hole gets the full points and the other player even if they tie them will get 1.5 points or maybe only 1 point for that hole.

Yeah, that's not right if you want 4bbb to be acceptable for handicapping.

4BBB is a pairs game; once the better score has been achieved, the second player cannot score - any strokes they subsequently make are irrelevant to their sides score, so they shouldn't be recorded.

People need to detach WHS scaling up processes from what actually happens on the course. They are there to create a fair and appropriate Score Differential - nothing more.

 

[wjemather]

Fro the Guidance to the Rules of Handicapping as applied within GB&I:-

"The standard approach to Fourball competition should continue to be used – as soon as the best score has been recorded, the other player should pick up in order not to impact pace of play.

Handicap Committees will be justified in disregarding scores for handicapping purposes where scores for both players are recorded on a significant number of holes on a regular basis."

Important to note that this falls a long way short of advising committees that they should be doing this.

All I’m saying is that EG patently do not wish to have both scores recorded for handicapping on each hole.
Also the statement that Handicap Committees are “justified’ in applying the sanction of “disregarding” scores recorded in this way for handicapping is quite a big sanction.
As I have stated, if this is their intention, a software based solution would be better than the proposed woolly sanction as this is difficult to record and implement as such competitions are infrequent and often played away from home and with different partners and as such, I presume, rarely enforced.

I asked the question of the previous head of handicapping & course rating at EG and his response was that they have no intention to go any further than they have in dissuading/preventing players submitting both scores, and that being overly officious would be counter-productive.

 

[Springveldt]

4BBB is a pairs game; once the better score has been achieved, the second player cannot score - any strokes they subsequently make are irrelevant to their sides score, so they shouldn't be recorded.

People need to detach WHS scaling up processes from what actually happens on the course. They are there to create a fair and appropriate Score Differential - nothing more.

I know what it is but at the same time they are taking players score for handicapping purposes and adding fictitious shots to it rather than the score the player produced. It’s stupid, it’s not fair or appropriate. There is no need to make up a score when the player can simply complete the hole.

Either have it for handicap and take into account scores that were tied on the hole or don’t take handicap adjustments into consideration. What they have now is a half thought out idea that isn’t accomplishing what they want.

 

[Swango1980]

I know what it is but at the same time they are taking players score for handicapping purposes and adding fictitious shots to it rather than the score the player produced. It’s stupid, it’s not fair or appropriate. There is no need to make up a score when the player can simply complete the hole.

Either have it for handicap and take into account scores that were tied on the hole or don’t take handicap adjustments into consideration. What they have now is a half thought out idea that isn’t accomplishing what they want.

It feels like we will get to the point in a few years, if you hit a bucket of 25 balls at the range, they'll find some sort of bizarre methodology to make that go on your handicap record

 

[chrisd]

My mate and I scored 49 points in a better ball in our golf week. We recorded both of our scores as well as our playing partners.
We ask for our scores to be assessed for a cut and a couple of weeks later we were both reduced by one shot .