2's Query/problem

[Old Skier]

The concept of 2s pots is closer to prizes/prize money than gambling IMO.
Then again there's more than one way to run 2s!
We have always kept it simple - fixed percentages of the competition entry fee pool get paid as prizes (direct to club cards) and anyone scoring a 2 gets £6, also paid direct to club card. This applies to everyone - we don't have juniors (CONGU doesn't), if you have a valid handicap you are a member playing in the competition.
Gambling is a very different thing.

I understand that CONGU don't have juniors, but the law has rules on age when gambling (If it is considered gambling) is involved.

I personally don't think it is gambling if you have an option to enter, but I don't see how members can be forced to enter a twos comp.

 

[jim8flog]

Juniors -
The law on gambling by under 18s can be a bit vague but it is often accepted that 18 should be the minimum age to gamble

We use that the basis and juniors at our club are not allowed to enter in to sweeps.

Juniors fall in to various groups at our club defined by their age.

 

[Homer]

2s included within entry fee for all competitions. No issues.

No card or DQ then no 2.

 

[duncan mackie]

I understand that CONGU don't have juniors, but the law has rules on age when gambling (If it is considered gambling) is involved.

I personally don't think it is gambling if you have an option to enter, but I don't see how members can be forced to enter a twos comp.

Define this concept of an option to enter, and define how a twos comp differers from a comp with any form of prizes.

I'm not trying to be difficult, and appreciate that you didn't bring gambling into this thread, but as you have these views you may be able to bring light to the issue.

(I might add that in this context the legal definition of gambling is clearly more relevant than the R&A, as it's it's age elements).

 

[Homer]

Why is it gambling? Surely no different from winning the main competition and getting a prize for it?

 

[rulefan]

What if the member in question is against all forms of gambling.
If it’s compulsory that puts them in an awkward position.
To force someone to take part is wrong , that was my point not the legality of it.
He has a choice to leave the club but that would seem counterproductive in this day and age.

He has a choice to refuse the prize and to consider any contribution he has made as a donation to the club and removed from the prize fund.

 

[2blue]

Why is it gambling? Surely no different from winning the main competition and getting a prize for it?

Yeah I hoped we might get it cleared up here as I think you'll find, & I think in the past I've read it somewhere, that it's a 'sweepstake-challange', ' Gambling-Contest' or similar & as such is completely separate from the regulated Competition.
Therefore if you satisfy the 2's requirement of getting down in 2 or better then any of the other Comp requirements like NR or DQ are irrelevant & maybe contested in law if those requirements are applied.... even if the Comp entry is a combined sum including the 2's. Yes, the legality of this compulsive nature, must also be questionable as such things are unethical to some folk who join a Golf Club to simply play qualifying golf.
Our juniors can win the Honours Board Comp & join in any of them but do not pay entry fees & are not in the 2's.
Yes... the 2's Club really is quite a can-of-worms

 

[clubchamp98]

Yeah I hoped we might get it cleared up here as I think you'll find, & I think in the past I've read it somewhere, that it's a 'sweepstake-challange', ' Gambling-Contest' or similar & as such is completely separate from the regulated Competition.
Therefore if you satisfy the 2's requirement of getting down in 2 or better then any of the other Comp requirements like NR or DQ are irrelevant & maybe contested in law if applied even if the Comp entry is a combined sum including the 2's. Yes, the legality of this compulsive nature, must also be questionable as such things are unethical to some folk who join a Golf Club to simply play qualifying golf.
Our juniors can win the Honours Board Comp & join in any of them but do not pay entry fees & are not in the 2's.
Yes... the 2's Club really is quite a can-of-worms

Our 2s are separate from main comp.
But my take is I pay my pound to the pro (bookie ) I am betting a pound that I will get a two and take a share of the pot!
That to me is a gamble.
Yes it’s low level but gambling !

As for giving your prize to the club is after the fact, if it’s compulsary it’s forcing someone who is against it to take part.
That to me is not right ,just my opinion.

 

[2blue]

Our 2s are separate from main comp.
But my take is I pay my pound to the pro (bookie ) I am betting a pound that I will get a two and take a share of the pot!
That to me is a gamble.
Yes it’s low level but gambling !

As for giving your prize to the club is after the fact, if it’s compulsary it’s forcing someone who is against it to take part.
That to me is not right ,just my opinion.

That's exactly it as I see it & have seen it described in the past & upheld in law when a player contested being DQ'd from a sizable roll-over pot. The simple fact is, 'Did you get a 2' with-in the Rules of Golf. NOT... '& manage to satisfy all the other Competition requirements to avoid an NR or DQ'
Yes, in deed, they are being forced to be part of the 'gamble' you clearly describe..... the Comp is not a 'gamble' but is a way of maintaining a H/cap with winnings for the 'competition'... quite different to a gamble where you get nothing back for failure.

 

[backwoodsman]

Just a thought but ...

If you didn't "manage to satisfy all the other Competition requirements to avoid an NR or DQ" then presumably you didn't "get a 2' with-in the Rules of Golf" ? If you were DQ, you failed to meet the rules ?

 

[2blue]

Just a thought but ...

If you didn't "manage to satisfy all the other Competition requirements to avoid an NR or DQ" then presumably you didn't "get a 2' with-in the Rules of Golf" ? If you were DQ, you failed to meet the rules ?

Means you didn't cheat on that hole. to get the 2.

 

[Old Skier]

Define this concept of an option to enter, and define how a twos comp differers from a comp with any form of prizes.

I'm not trying to be difficult, and appreciate that you didn't bring gambling into this thread, but as you have these views you may be able to bring light to the issue.

(I might add that in this context the legal definition of gambling is clearly more relevant than the R&A, as it's it's age elements).

Option to enter 2's which is completely separate to the main comp IMO.

Providing cards are handed in at our club, a 2 is a 2 and counts.

 

[duncan mackie]

That's exactly it as I see it & have seen it described in the past & upheld in law when a player contested being DQ'd from a sizable roll-over pot. The simple fact is, 'Did you get a 2' with-in the Rules of Golf. NOT... '& manage to satisfy all the other Competition requirements to avoid an NR or DQ'
Yes, in deed, they are being forced to be part of the 'gamble' you clearly describe..... the Comp is not a 'gamble' but is a way of maintaining a H/cap with winnings for the 'competition'... quite different to a gamble where you get nothing back for failure.

Still don't get this gambling element.
The process of making a 2 involves the skill of the player in exactly the same way as winning the event. This is an easily proven principle.

 

[2blue]

Still don't get this gambling element.
The process of making a 2 involves the skill of the player in exactly the same way as winning the event. This is an easily proven principle.

& just like betting on football results & horse racing it involves the judgement skills of the punter.... oh yes, it's clearly a gamble... with nowt for the looser.

 

[doublebogey7]

& just like betting on football results & horse racing it involves the judgement skills of the punter.... oh yes, it's clearly a gamble... with nowt for the looser.

But you cannot influence the result of a football match or horse race, in gambling on these events you are making judgement, no sporting skill involved. Only you can influence whether a two is made, that involves a sporting skill, so you win a prize not a bet. Is my entry fee for the competition a gamble?

 

[duncan mackie]

But you cannot influence the result of a football match or horse race, in gambling on these events you are making judgement, no sporting skill involved. Only you can influence whether a two is made, that involves a sporting skill, so you win a prize not a bet. Is my entry fee for the competition a gamble?

By his definition, apparently so.
But you are correct - and the law clearly delineates between games of change and games of skill; although I'm not sure whether that's even relevant here.
Move it to a hole in one and I believe it is deemed chance; but we aren't dealing with holes in one...

 

[2blue]

But you cannot influence the result of a football match or horse race, in gambling on these events you are making judgement, no sporting skill involved. Only you can influence whether a two is made, that involves a sporting skill, so you win a prize not a bet. Is my entry fee for the competition a gamble?

No, you register for a Competition where the main purpose is recreation & H/cap maintenance.

With 2's you are betting 'all or nothing' on the result. Putting up £1 for a possible share of the pot.... also quite different to Competition registration where only a portion is paid out as prize money.
Card games & other such activities are influenced by the skill of the participants but would definitely be regarded as gambling OR by your definition NOT?

Whether it is or not matters little really, however, always round, I'm not sure that 2's should be compulsory & as has been mentioned earlier... doubtful whether it is legal to do so.

 

[doublebogey7]

Whether it is or not matters little really, however, always round, I'm not sure that 2's should be compulsory & as has been mentioned earlier... doubtful whether it is legal to do so.[/QUOTE]

At my club not all of the pot is paid out (do bookies pay out the whole pot? I think not) and it is also not compulsory and I do agree that it shouldn't be, though your assertion that may be illegal to laughabl., We have a choice on whether to take part or not on the terms the club has decided on. Your argument on card games shows that this argument could go on forever and that there is no definition of gambling that would satisfy our world view so best leave it to opinion.
​

 

[backwoodsman]

Means you didn't cheat on that hole. to get the 2.

Not saying anyone has cheated.

My opinion only, but if you don't play the whole round under the constraints of tbe rules (ie you get DQ for whatever reason) then your whole round is null & void - you don't have a score and should not be in the running for any "prize" even if the "prize" relates to a limited part of the round.

Also opinion only but overall I think ...
DQ - should not be eligible for any prize inc 2's
NR (ie no card submitted) - no validated/recorded score(s) submitted so not eligible for twos
NR on individual hole but card submitted - fine; if you got a two on the card, you get your share.

 

[2blue]

Not saying anyone has cheated.

My opinion only, but if you don't play the whole round under the constraints of tbe rules (ie you get DQ for whatever reason) then your whole round is null & void - you don't have a score and should not be in the running for any "prize" even if the "prize" relates to a limited part of the round.

Also opinion only but overall I think ...
DQ - should not be eligible for any prize inc 2's
NR (ie no card submitted) - no validated/recorded score(s) submitted so not eligible for twos
NR on individual hole but card submitted - fine; if you got a two on the card, you get your share.

Yeah, OK, your opinion... but very contradictory