Yellow Staked Hazard

[Whereditgo]

Player hits his ball towards a yellow staked hazard, but owing to a slope we can't see if it stopped short or ran in, we both agree it's going to be 'nip and tuck'. The player then says he's going to hit a provisional. I tell him he can't hit a provisional, because his first is either just short of, or in, the hazard, and if we can't find it it must be in there. My thinking being that he must play under the rules governing the hazard if he can't find the original.

Bit of a heated debate unsues and he hits a provisional anyway - I mutter something about him having hit the wrong ball then and we carry on.

It was only a friendly (until that point

 

[robbest3offthetee]

Did you explain to him that he could play 3 from the hazard,if the ball was in it,rather than be 3 off the tee,and would be playing his 4th shot from the fairway...

 

[Whereditgo]

The way I saw it was that because we didn't know whether or not the ball had gone in to the hazard, it could have stopped short, he shouldn't play a provisional. As it happened the original had gone in the hazard and he carried on with his provisional - still wrong IMO because the rules applying to water hazards should then have been applied?

 

[USER1999]

At any time you can play a provisional, it's up to you.

However, if you find the original it is in play.

If you can't find the original, but did not see it enter the hazard, you have to be virtually certain it went in there, or the provisional can be used.

If you are sure that when you can't find the ball it went in the hazard (ie: no rough at all and you got a good line on it), then the rules apply re the hazard, and you can't play the provisional.

Had something like this at the Belfry, and the hazard was surrounded by short rough, and no one got a line on it. Matey wanted to take a drop out of the hazard, but we argued he should go back to the tee for a lost ball, as we couldn't be 100% certain it was in the hazard.

 

[viscount17]

if the ball <u>could</u> have been lost outside the hazard, then he was right to play a provisional.

only if you then know or are virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard, can he take relief under those rules.

if the water hazard is blind, then, unless you can see the ball in the hazard or there is no other place it could be, you can only assume

 

[Whereditgo]

Murph, are you sure about playing a provisional at any time? Rule 27-2 states:

a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1 .

In this case it wasn't OOB and neither was it going to be lost anywhere other than in the hazard

if the ball <u>could</u> have been lost outside the hazard, then he was right to play a provisional.

only if you then know or are virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard, can he take relief under those rules.

if the water hazard is blind, then, unless you can see the ball in the hazard or there is no other place it could be, you can only assume

There was no rough around, we both had the line and it was just a question of whether or not the ball trickled into the hazard or held on the edge, there really was no other place the ball could be.

 

[USER1999]

I have lost balls in the middle of the fairway before now. You always have the option of a provisional if you want to hit one, unless you can clearly see it in the middle of the fairway. It just wastes a bit of time.

 

[bladeplayer]

Just asking.. was he not right to play provisional as ye were playing a match & if ye got down to the hazzard, & no sign of the ball , then if both players couldnt agree its in the hazzard u could have a lost ball scenario & have to treck back to play from origional spot. (all would be fine if ye agreed it was definatly in hazzard)or he plays the provisional & when you get up there his ball is ok well then u play the origional ball & provisional is out of play , like wise you can find or identify the ball in the hazzard the provisional can be taken out of play & resume with the penalty drop , it would keep thing moving .. would it make scence this way or is this actualy breaking a rule

 

[chrisd]

100% with Murph on this one. Any time you play a shot that may result in a lost ball you should play a provisional, whether a tee shot or any other, it saves a lot of time if you have to walk back when you dont find your ball



Chris

 

[Whereditgo]

The thing is we had both agreed it was either going to be in or just short of the hazard, so if we didn't find it sat on the fairway length turf just in front then it had to be in?

 

[DCB]

I think a lot depends on those magic words "virtually certain" regarding whether the ball is in the hazard or not in the hazard.

This will determine whether you use Rule 26 or Rule 27 to resolve the situation. Rule 26 covering the ball in the hazard and Rule 27 ball lost outwith the hazard.

 

[sweatysock41]

I think he was right to play a provisional, even if the ball was in the hazard you can still play your next shot under penalty from the original position can't you?

 

[viscount17]

I think he was right to play a provisional, even if the ball was in the hazard you can still play your next shot under penalty from the original position can't you?

Isn't there a funny twist in the rules in that if you opt to play another from the original spot then the provisional doesn't count?

 

[Whereditgo]

Lets say the hazard was just in front of the green (it wasn't in this case), his ball looks like it may have gone into the hazard (bear in mind we both agreed it would be either perched on the slope into, or in the hazard), so he plays a provisional and nails it into the centre of the green.

We walk up, no sign of ball, "I'll play my provisional then" says he! Whereas we both know his original is in the hazard and he should be playing his next shot over the hazard.

Maybe just one of those cases where the rules give you a break?

 

[Imurg]

The thing is we had both agreed it was either going to be in or just short of the hazard, so if we didn't find it sat on the fairway length turf just in front then it had to be in?

Therefore you can be virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard and proceed accordingly. This "virtually certain" bit came in at the last rules update I think. It covers this exact scenario where there is practically no rough around a hazard and the only places tha ball could be is in it or just outside - if you can't see it outside then you can be virtually certain that it's in.
So a provisional wouldn't count. It's a drop back or stroke and distance.
That's why there's not much point in playing a provisional if you've gone in (or maybe gone in) a hazard unless there's rough around to lose your ball in.
In this situation, the ball's either in the hazard or on the fairway - either way a Provo's a waste of time.

 

[MashieNiblick]

I think you were right Wherediditgo.

I think the Rules are fairly clear that you cannot play a provisional ball simply on the basis that you think the ball is lost in a water hazard. Water Hazards are covered by Rule 26 and there is no provision in that Rule to play a provisional ball if it is known or virtually certain that the ball is in a water hazard. I agree with DCB therefore that it depends on whether you can be virually certain it is in the water hazard or whether there is a possibility it is lost outside the hazard.

Provisional Balls are covered by rule 27-2 which states:

"27-2 - Provisional Ball

a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1.

(...)

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, the provisional ball becomes the ball in play, under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in a water hazard, the player must proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1.

(my highlighting)

This is also specifically addressed in the FAQ's to this rule on the Rules Explorer on the R&A website.

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateu...mp;subRuleNum=2

"Q. Can I play a provisional ball if I think my ball has gone into a water hazard?

A. It is not possible to play a provisional ball simply when you think your original ball may have gone in a water hazard. However, you are entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard (in bushes/long grass outside the hazard) or if it may have gone out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned."

If there was really no possibility of it being lost outside the hazard then there's no option to play a provisional. Trouble is, that could be hard to establish. If you both know the course and both know there is no long grass near the hazard then he really shouldn't have played the provisional. If there was a chance it was lost outside the hazard he could justify playing a provisional but once you got to the hazard and realised it must be in there then the provisional ball must be abandoned.

Decision 27-2a/2.5 is also relevant I think:

"Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard.

Q. A player's tee shot is struck towards an area of trees, bushes and tall grass. Believing his ball might be lost outside a water hazard, the player announces his intention to play a provisional ball and plays a ball from the tee. When he arrives at the area, he finds that the area in question is wetlands that has been defined as a lateral water hazard and that it is known or virtually certain that his ball is in it. What is the ruling?

A. As the player played the second ball from the tee in the belief that his original ball might be lost outside a water hazard, that ball was a provisional ball. The subsequent discovery that the area in question is in fact a lateral water hazard is irrelevant. Therefore, the player must abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 26-1 - see Rule 27-2c."

 

[sawtooth]

I'm pretty sure that only the player himself can decide to hit a provisional its not your call.

Similarly only the player himself can declare his ball lost. You might find it but if the player chooses to declare it lost thats his prerogative.

 

[Leftie]

Similarly only the player himself can declare his ball lost. You might find it but if the player chooses to declare it lost thats his prerogative.

Sorry Sawtooth, but wrong on both counts.

 

[sawtooth]

The OP said himself that the ball did not definitely go in the water, therefore it could conceivably be lost outside of the water. If the guy wants to play a provisional he is perfectly entitled to do so.

About the lost ball and not talking about the water hazard scenario above, if I spank a ball into the trees I can declare it lost. I don't even have to look for it.

 

[Smiffy]

if I spank a ball into the trees I can declare it lost. I don't even have to look for it.

But I think (think) that if one of your playing partners finds the ball (even though you may not want them to) before you have played another shot from closer to the hole, you have to play your first ball?