bobmac
Major Champion
Don't know how he does it but he's right again
Yellow Staked Hazard
- Thread starter Whereditgo
- Start date
Don't know how he does it but he's right again
sawtooth
Tour Winner
Smiffy I dont think that matters because even then the only person that can identify the ball is the person it belongs to - no one else.
Besides if I carry on and hit my provisional ball (beyond the point) that ball is the one now in play, there is nothing in the rules to prevent me from doing that. I can simply say thats not my ball and play on.
Its not the sporting thing to do perhaps and I wouldnt necessarily do it but it is permissable under the rules - at least I cant see anything in the rules to the contrary but wait to be corrected on that.
jammydodger
Tour Winner
Could be that you arent the next to play so would be playing out of turn though. Or your marker should know what ball youre playing and how you've marked it up ie 2 green dots below the number etc
This is a scenario that mainly comes into force in matchplay , your oppo has mullered it into the cabbage and has striped a good provisional down the fairway. Do you ignore his stating he's not going to look for it and have a good nose for it yourself ? Ok by the rules but a little unsporting perhaps
This is a scenario that mainly comes into force in matchplay , your oppo has mullered it into the cabbage and has striped a good provisional down the fairway. Do you ignore his stating he's not going to look for it and have a good nose for it yourself ? Ok by the rules but a little unsporting perhaps
viscount17
Money List Winner
Smiffy I dont think that matters because even then the only person that can identify the ball is the person it belongs to - no one else.
Besides if I carry on and hit my provisional ball (beyond the point) that ball is the one now in play, there is nothing in the rules to prevent me from doing that. I can simply say thats not my ball and play on.
Its not the sporting thing to do perhaps and I wouldnt necessarily do it but it is permissable under the rules - at least I cant see anything in the rules to the contrary but wait to be corrected on that.
the simple answer is, if you play a ball well into the cabbage play another without declaring a provisional - the second ball becomes the ball in play irrespective of anyone finding the first.
not that it helped Kevin Na - 15 on the 9th at Valero
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Cheers Viscount. Was just composing one of my lengthy Rules posts with all the references to say what you said in a few well chosen words. Suffice to say Rules 27-1a and 27-2a apply.
Still plenty of mileage in this one though so here goes.
With regard to the original ball being found when the player does'nt want to search for it, this is covered by a couple of decisions
27-2b/1 Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball
"Q. At a par-3 hole, a player hits his tee shot into dense woods. He then hits a provisional ball which comes to rest near the hole. In view of the position of the provisional ball, the player does not wish to find his original ball. He does not search for it and walks directly towards his provisional ball to continue play with it. His opponent (or fellow-competitor) believes it would be beneficial to him if the original ball were found. May the opponent (or fellow-competitor) search for the player's ball?
A. Yes. In equity (Rule 1-4) he may search for five minutes provided that in the meantime the player does not play a stroke with the provisional ball, it being nearer the hole than the place where the original ball is likely to be. The player is entitled to play such a stroke. If he does, the original ball is then lost under Rule 27-2b and further search for it would serve no purpose. In match play, if the player so proceeds and his provisional ball is closer to the hole than his opponent's ball, his opponent may recall the stroke (Rule 10-1c). However, recalling the stroke would not change the status of the original ball, which was lost when the provisional ball was played out of turn. See also Decision 27-2c/2."
27-2c/2 Ball Believed to Be Original Found; Player Wishes to Ignore It and Continue Play with Provisional Ball
"Q. At a par-3 hole, a player plays his tee shot into a heavy thicket. Since his ball may be lost, he hits a provisional ball that comes to rest near the hole. In the circumstances, it is advantageous to the player not to find his original ball. Accordingly, the player does not search for the original ball and walks directly toward his provisional ball. While the player is on his way to his provisional ball, a ball believed to be his original is found. The player is advised that his original ball may have been found. May the player ignore this ball and continue play with the provisional ball?
A. No. The player must inspect the ball that has been found and, if it is the player's original ball, he must continue play with it (or proceed under the unplayable ball Rule). The provisional ball must be abandoned – Rule 27-2c. See also Decision 27-2b/1."
So it seems it all depends on whether the original ball is found before a stroke is played with the provisional ball from a point nearer to the hole, which would then make it the ball in play.
So far as a player refusing to identify a ball is concerned this is also covered by a decision
27/13 Refusal to Identify Ball
"Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?
A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player's ball. If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee (Rule 34-3). In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7."
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=27
As usual the R&A Rules explorer provides the answers. I think
Anyway enough of that for now. Got the day off today for some practice and a lesson and a go with the Mizuno Swing DNA thingy. Should be fun.
Still plenty of mileage in this one though so here goes.
With regard to the original ball being found when the player does'nt want to search for it, this is covered by a couple of decisions
27-2b/1 Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball
"Q. At a par-3 hole, a player hits his tee shot into dense woods. He then hits a provisional ball which comes to rest near the hole. In view of the position of the provisional ball, the player does not wish to find his original ball. He does not search for it and walks directly towards his provisional ball to continue play with it. His opponent (or fellow-competitor) believes it would be beneficial to him if the original ball were found. May the opponent (or fellow-competitor) search for the player's ball?
A. Yes. In equity (Rule 1-4) he may search for five minutes provided that in the meantime the player does not play a stroke with the provisional ball, it being nearer the hole than the place where the original ball is likely to be. The player is entitled to play such a stroke. If he does, the original ball is then lost under Rule 27-2b and further search for it would serve no purpose. In match play, if the player so proceeds and his provisional ball is closer to the hole than his opponent's ball, his opponent may recall the stroke (Rule 10-1c). However, recalling the stroke would not change the status of the original ball, which was lost when the provisional ball was played out of turn. See also Decision 27-2c/2."
27-2c/2 Ball Believed to Be Original Found; Player Wishes to Ignore It and Continue Play with Provisional Ball
"Q. At a par-3 hole, a player plays his tee shot into a heavy thicket. Since his ball may be lost, he hits a provisional ball that comes to rest near the hole. In the circumstances, it is advantageous to the player not to find his original ball. Accordingly, the player does not search for the original ball and walks directly toward his provisional ball. While the player is on his way to his provisional ball, a ball believed to be his original is found. The player is advised that his original ball may have been found. May the player ignore this ball and continue play with the provisional ball?
A. No. The player must inspect the ball that has been found and, if it is the player's original ball, he must continue play with it (or proceed under the unplayable ball Rule). The provisional ball must be abandoned – Rule 27-2c. See also Decision 27-2b/1."
So it seems it all depends on whether the original ball is found before a stroke is played with the provisional ball from a point nearer to the hole, which would then make it the ball in play.
So far as a player refusing to identify a ball is concerned this is also covered by a decision
27/13 Refusal to Identify Ball
"Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?
A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player's ball. If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee (Rule 34-3). In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7."
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=27
As usual the R&A Rules explorer provides the answers. I think
Anyway enough of that for now. Got the day off today for some practice and a lesson and a go with the Mizuno Swing DNA thingy. Should be fun.
Leftie
Tour Winner
The point I was making, have made many times before, and will probably not bother with again (and amply expanded upon by many peeps as above) is that "declaring a ball lost" has no meaning or validity under the rules of golf.
sawtooth
Tour Winner
I stand corrected Leftie. I'm guessing that these rule amendments are relatively new because I trawled through the R&A rules some years back researching this and I didnt see this section at all.
This may well have saved me from a future DQ!!
Cheers all.
Leftie
Tour Winner
If you hit the 1st into the bundi and don't want to find it, play another without declaring it as a provisional. That then becomes the ball in play. Just make sure you keep that one on the short stuff
Smiffy
Grand Slam Winner
Which is a bit of a sickener when you walk down the fairway and find that your first ball actually hit a tree and bounced out into the middle of the fairway and is sitting up like a dogs goolie but nobody saw it.
bobmac
Major Champion
Which is a bit of a sickener when you walk down the fairway and find that your first ball actually hit a tree and bounced out into the middle of the fairway and is sitting up like a dogs goolie but nobody saw it.
Especially after you've just spent 10 minutes looking for it in the trees.
bobmac
Major Champion
For those of you who are not sure of this rule or are new to the game, here's my understanding of it.
1st hole at the Bracken this afternoon.
Smiffy carves one out into the trees to Pos 1
Declares a provisional on the tee and knobs it to pos 2. Tops that one to Pos 3. duffs it to Pos 4.
Finally he gets it airborn and it lands at Pos 5.
At any time during the playing of the hole so far, his playing partner could go and look for his ball. If he finds it, Smiffy MUST play it and his provisional MUST be picked up.
If, however Smiffy reaches Pos 5 and hits a shot from there, the original ball is deemed to be lost as he has played a stroke nearer the hole than where the original ball is thought to be.
If his partner finds his ball after Smiffy has played a shot from Pos 5, tough luck, it's lost.
HTH
1st hole at the Bracken this afternoon.
Smiffy carves one out into the trees to Pos 1
Declares a provisional on the tee and knobs it to pos 2. Tops that one to Pos 3. duffs it to Pos 4.
Finally he gets it airborn and it lands at Pos 5.
At any time during the playing of the hole so far, his playing partner could go and look for his ball. If he finds it, Smiffy MUST play it and his provisional MUST be picked up.
If, however Smiffy reaches Pos 5 and hits a shot from there, the original ball is deemed to be lost as he has played a stroke nearer the hole than where the original ball is thought to be.
If his partner finds his ball after Smiffy has played a shot from Pos 5, tough luck, it's lost.
HTH
Whereditgo
Journeyman Pro
In the interest of accuracy.....Smiffy didn't top his shot until position 5
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
out of curiosity How many putts did he have (or would he have had)In the interest of accuracy.....Smiffy didn't top his shot until position 5
, kevin na took 2 ??
Whereditgo
Journeyman Pro
Smiffy had 3 putts on the first green, but to borrow Bob's expression there where at least 3 elephants buried under that green!!! and Smiffy was putting from maybe 50 ft away.
The example Bob used was a fictitious account to show when the provisional ball becomes the ball in play etc.
Smiffy did however top his 2nd
The example Bob used was a fictitious account to show when the provisional ball becomes the ball in play etc.
Smiffy did however top his 2nd
Smiffy
Grand Slam Winner
Smiffy did however top his 2nd
And he didn't carve his first out into the trees. Bob is just using an excellent all round golfer as an example to show it can happen to the best of us.
Smiffy actually hit his drive to just short of the bunker, topped his second shot over the bunker and it ran on about 50 yards and then came up short with his wedge to the very front of the green.
Pin was cut right at the back and as Phil points out above, I had at least a 50' putt (could have actually been 70) and as I hadn't even stepped onto the practice putting green prior to teeing off, I was a little bit nervous to say the least. Gave it a biff, and for a minute it looked like it was in! Ran about 5 feet past and I missed the return.
A very well worked 6 for 1 point.
