Why should amature winnings be limited?

[harpo_72]

I never mentioned £10k first prize, I don't think even the local pro tour have a first prize that big. I was just thinking why is it limited.
I will have a look for Gary's book, sounds like it will be very interesting!

 

[Stuey01]

I was just thinking why is it limited.

How is it limited? Qualify for an event, play in said event.

 

[duncan mackie]

I don't disagree with that Val.
But if the good young amateurs could give it a go for a couple of years without invalidating their amateur status it may stop a lot of heartache later.
In my case as I was a pro for 7 years I had to wait 7 years to retain my amateur status. Quite farcical really.
Thankfully it is not to severe nowadays.

My Daughter moved to Scotland having played for England and had to wait 10 years before she could play in any Scottish national championships............equally daft as she could play in county events..

Doon - they can compete, most of the feeder Tours are happy to have elite amateurs compete, in exactly the same way as we see with the Ultra Elite and the main Tours.

The more I read this thread, the more I think the real question is more in the title than the initial post; Why is there a line between Amateur and Professional in Golf?

As you allude, the implications of that line have changed dramatically over the last 30 years ie you can 'give it a go' and get Amateur status back very easily indeed (there are some that suggest that this has gone too far already!) but the line still exists.

The actual support mechanism for that line must lie in the hierarchical structures that underpin (or otherwise depending on your view) the Amateur game.

 

[harpo_72]

How is it limited? Qualify for an event, play in said event.

Max prize is around £500 ... Question is why ? Who cares what it is, why is it such a big deal? Why are posters getting hot under the collar about it?

 

[Stuey01]

Max prize is around £500 ... Question is why ? Who cares what it is, why is it such a big deal? Why are posters getting hot under the collar about it?

If you want to play for more why not just turn pro?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Doon - they can compete, most of the feeder Tours are happy to have elite amateurs compete, in exactly the same way as we see with the Ultra Elite and the main Tours.

The more I read this thread, the more I think the real question is more in the title than the initial post; Why is there a line between Amateur and Professional in Golf?

As you allude, the implications of that line have changed dramatically over the last 30 years ie you can 'give it a go' and get Amateur status back very easily indeed (there are some that suggest that this has gone too far already!) but the line still exists.

The actual support mechanism for that line must lie in the hierarchical structures that underpin (or otherwise depending on your view) the Amateur game.

Indeed - so you could make a very case that says the European Tour should sponsor in some way very good amateurs - bit like interns in business. But then young pros - especially ass pros working in clubs would say 'why not us?' We're committing to the game and our club by turning pro and trying to make a go of it - why should the ET then sponsor amateurs when some of these amateurs will not need to work - for whatever reason - and will essentially be professional amateurs - able to practicve, play and compete all day long when the young assistant has a job to do i nthe club shop, lessons etc. Start promoting the 'cause' (whatever that cause is) of very good amateurs and you run the risk of undermining the club pro and his assistant - and the ultimately the very notion and existence of the club assistant pro as the main way into pro golf.

 

[harpo_72]

If you want to play for more why not just turn pro?

Thanks for your opinion, between swingsitlikehogan who is offering up an argument based on his imagination and yourself with no argument what so ever let alone a reason to why there is such limitations ... This thread has gone on for pages and pages. Yet still fails to answer the question.
Sometimes this forum drives me to despair, there are some real donkeys on here who set about posters for no apparent reason apart from they think they are right or their opinion is widely held, when it clearly is that of a space cadet.
There was a couple of threads where it just became a slagging match, totally unnecessary behaviour, sometimes the moderators should step in and tell these poster enough thank you very much ... I can see this one going that way if certain people stay involved. I can only imagine that those who post such unnecessary strong views are physical weeds in reality. It's strange how bullies change as you get older, they become less in physical presence due to society saying a good slap is not the answer to their poor behaviour.

 

[Stuey01]

Thanks for your opinion, between swingsitlikehogan who is offering up an argument based on his imagination and yourself with no argument what so ever let alone a reason to why there is such limitations ... This thread has gone on for pages and pages. Yet still fails to answer the question.
Sometimes this forum drives me to despair, there are some real donkeys on here who set about posters for no apparent reason apart from they think they are right or their opinion is widely held, when it clearly is that of a space cadet.
There was a couple of threads where it just became a slagging match, totally unnecessary behaviour, sometimes the moderators should step in and tell these poster enough thank you very much ... I can see this one going that way if certain people stay involved. I can only imagine that those who post such unnecessary strong views are physical weeds in reality. It's strange how bullies change as you get older, they become less in physical presence due to society saying a good slap is not the answer to their poor behaviour.

At the start of the thread it seemed like you were under the impression that you had to do the whole 3 year assistant pro apprentiship to play professional events. It's been pointed out that you don't have to do that and you've totally ignored it.
I'm not trying to start a fight with you, just point out that you can, in fact, play in professional events without having to be a PGA qualified pro. There is nothing stopping you.

Physical weed? LOL.

 

[USER1999]

It is an interesting question though.

Why ban auction style events? If those entering want to play, why do the rules prohibit it? My club has one, they shouldn't.

In it, the winning pair win about 3k. They shouldn't, according to the rules, but why not?

 

[doublebogey7]

The £500 limit is simply there to distinguish between an amateur and a pro. If there were no limit then there would be no distinction and therefore there could be no "amateur" competition. So no club or county championship's and no walker cup, unless "Amateur's" are happy for Pro's to turn up and take the prize.

As has already been pointed out anyone may enter professional events as long as they have demonstrated a level of ability. So I will turn the question around - why remove the limit?

 

[harpo_72]

At the start of the thread it seemed like you were under the impression that you had to do the whole 3 year assistant pro apprentiship to play professional events. It's been pointed out that you don't have to do that and you've totally ignored it.
I'm not trying to start a fight with you, just point out that you can, in fact, play in professional events without having to be a PGA qualified pro. There is nothing stopping you.

Physical weed? LOL.

yes thank you for pointing that out .. So many times, I think I got it first time. But the original question still stands.

 

[Stuey01]

yes thank you for pointing that out .. So many times, I think I got it first time. But the original question still stands.

Clearly you didn't since you were still posting about wasting 3 years AFTER it had been pointed out.

 

[Foxholer]

Top amateurs can set up trust funds to draw money for 'travel and living expenses'.
They are given equipment, clothing etc by golf companies.
If not at college they get mock 'jobs' as car salesmen/women, insurance companies, banks etc. These sponsors allow them to play full time.
Gary Wolstenholme is a good example of someone walking the thin line. I would recommend you read his book if you really want to know. He did it quite successfully for about 25 years. The EGU were constantly trying to trip him up but he was their top player so it led to some funny moments.

As I said earlier even some of the County golf unions fall foul of the R&A rules.

I don't disagree that some elements of this are correct, but I believe there are limts/restrictions on such activity and don't believe the jobs are quite as 'mock' as you suggest. There's definitely a degree of allowance in some of them - and some reasonable perks available - but that's little different to Corporate Hospitality.

If you know of any instances where County Unions are breaking R& Rules, you should bring them to UGU/R&A notice. It's not a lvel playing field otherwise.

I like the idea of the 'temporary' Pro that can compete as a Pro for a period before either committing to the Pro path or reverting to an Am. I think it's only 1 year 'rest' now - and know a couple who have done that.

@Harpo. You still haven't my question - similar to that of others - of why you thing Amateurs would/should want to compete for cash. That moves into the realm of Professionalism - with £500 being the decreed crossover limit.

Btw. The 4th ranked Lady Golfer in the world is an Amateur - and 17 from memory!

 

[harpo_72]

Affectively every monthly medal that is that is what you are doing, you can dress it how you like, unless of cause your just looking for a cut. I have to be honest and I don't really care for the prizes on offer, I like the board comps and the cut. If there is no cut then I am not even bothered where I finished in the competition (which kind of explains my attitude to the CSS, I am looking for cuts).
Regarding pros, honestly you could filter them out of any amateur competition because they will be listed as PGA members, so them coming and taking all the prizes is a misconception. The basic question is why £500, why not £2000 or £8500 ( this I for many is the minimum non taxed income band , roughly)

 

[Doon frae Troon]

As I said earlier they give Marks and Spencers vouchers as prizes.
How can that be different from cash? The taxman says it is the same.

When Ronnie Shade was the best amateur in the world his dad was pro at Duddingston.
You could only use your vouchers at PGA shops in those days. That worked well for him.

Many pros will give 'friendly' amateurs cash less 20% for their vouchers.

 

[harpo_72]

Clearly you didn't since you were still posting about wasting 3 years AFTER it had been pointed out.

But that was not the answer to the question was it, interesting point though it was.. Your not a politician are you?

 

[Stuey01]

But that was not the answer to the question was it, interesting point though it was.. Your not a politician are you?

Do you even remember what you asked?
It does answer the at least some of the questions you have posed.
You said:

After looking into the PGA requirements, I understand why lots of people don't bother. However I cannot see why people cannot compete for money or be sponsored etc without being a member of the PGA. I know the tour is owned and run by the PGA but that is just a brand. Why can't you have scratch competitions for non PGA members for big prizes as well, what is the r and a' s issue?

That is what I am questioning why can't people just play for big prizes why is there a limitation ... My local pro tour won't let me play for their pot, I don't want to stand on the side lines I want to be involved. I am sure some of the low chaps on here would like to play for some proper money

You said you want to be involved, not on the sidelines, in the pro events. Without going through the PGA "waste of 3 years"

That's a fair point, but as stated why waste 3 years, why not go off and do it.

So you want to explain exactly how pointing out that you can be involved and don't have to waste 3 years doesn't specifically answer the exact points you raised?

 

[doublebogey7]

1) Regarding pros, honestly you could filter them out of any amateur competition because they will be listed as PGA members, so them coming and taking all the prizes is a misconception. 2)The basic question is why £500, why not £2000 or £8500 ( this I for many is the minimum non taxed income band , roughly)

1) There could be no "Amateur" competition if there is no way of distinguishing an Amateur from a Pro or are you suggesting membership of the PGA would be the distinguishing factor. If so then what would motivate Tiger or anyone else becoming a member, when by not doing so they would retain their Amateur status. Would make the Walker Cup interesting I suppose.
2) Because the Governing bodies feel that is the figure that is reasonable to distinguish one from the other. Remember this is a per competition figure not an annual one, seems rather generous to me. What figure would you suggest and why.

 

[harpo_72]

The question was why is there a limitation on the prize fund for amateurs...? You can take all responses out of context if you like and make up a daily mail story ... I don't mind what you do, just don't involve me.

 

[harpo_72]

1) There could be no "Amateur" competition if there is no way of distinguishing an Amateur from a Pro or are you suggesting membership of the PGA would be the distinguishing factor. If so then what would motivate Tiger or anyone else becoming a member, when by not doing so they would retain their Amateur status. Would make the Walker Cup interesting I suppose.
2) Because the Governing bodies feel that is the figure that is reasonable to distinguish one from the other. Remember this is a per competition figure not an annual one, seems rather generous to me. What figure would you suggest and why.

Do you think tiger et al would stay amateur if more money was available on pro tours?
Second, yes that's a fair answer the authority has deemed this to be the number, but how did they arrive there, did they pluck it out of their backsides like the high street banks do with their mortgage rates ...( don't take that comment too seriously please)