WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

[Deleted member 15344]

You are making in little sense in your side of the debate here. Especially as you fully acknowledge YOU are disqualified when you fail to hole out in a medal.

So why does it need to change - it’s shows NR which people know what it means ?‍

So why not have DQ in the results? It is the proper result. NR is not. I can only imagine you are that emotionally impacted upon when seeing DQ beside your name, that you are much more comforted by having NR instead. Perhaps people need to be a little less hurt by a DQ, realising that 99% of the time a DQ has nothing to do with a player acting without integrity, but simply a technicality or unfortunate accidental oversight, that this would not be an issue.

It is an NR - that’s the score that’s entered into the system - NR , simple , why the need to change

I’m not impacted by anything.

Again What difference does it make to anyone - it’s been NR for years , it hasn’t made a difference to anyone so why change it

If you didn't sign your card, would you rather have DQ, NR or some other notification that gives you comfort?

What does “comfort” have to do with anything- and there is no connection between not signing a card and NR ?‍ - if people don’t sign their card or put the wrong score in etc they know they will be “DQ” with the comment next to it ( typed in ) - giving them the reason why

Just like ok Saturday - two DQs - both for not signing their card

So what exactly are you trying to achieve by wanting “NR” changed to DQ for every single ISV out there ? Including all those high level Amatuer comps ( just checked on some of the R&A comps and they have NR not DQ)

 

[Swango1980]

So why does it need to change - it’s shows NR which people know what it means ?‍



It is an NR - that’s the score that’s entered into the system - NR , simple , why the need to change

I’m not impacted by anything.

Again What difference does it make to anyone - it’s been NR for years , it hasn’t made a difference to anyone so why change it



What does “comfort” have to do with anything- and there is no connection between not signing a card and NR ?‍ - if people don’t sign their card or put the wrong score in etc they know they will be “DQ” with the comment next to it ( typed in ) - giving them the reason why

Just like ok Saturday - two DQs - both for not signing their card

So what exactly are you trying to achieve by wanting “NR” changed to DQ for every single ISV out there ? Including all those high level Amatuer comps ( just checked on some of the R&A comps and they have NR not DQ)

But why do you seem dead against a potentially trivial programming change in order to present the correct result.

No Return makes zero sense when a player has returned their overall score. They returned it. DQ is the result. Perhaps there could be a note next to DQ to confirm the relevant rule, just like when DQ'ed for other infractions.

It just sounds like you are arguing to keep it because "they've always done it that way", but simply content you can interpret in your head as DQ.

If it did change to DQ, would you be angry, frustrated or hurt. Or would it be a non issue to you?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

But why do you seem dead against a potentially trivial programming change in order to present the correct result.

No Return makes zero sense when a player has returned their overall score. They returned it. DQ is the result. Perhaps there could be a note next to DQ to confirm the relevant rule, just like when DQ'ed for other infractions.

It just sounds like you are arguing to keep it because "they've always done it that way", but simply content you can interpret in your head as DQ.

If it did change to DQ, would you be angry, frustrated or hurt. Or would it be a non issue to you?

sorry but you keep failing to answer

What difference does it make - what is the real world crucial difference to you and all the members for the change to be implemented by all the ISVs ?

And can you really not understand that the NR is a “nil return of score “ as opposed to not entering the scorecard

when they fail to complete one or more holes they don’t have an “overall score” - the score is NR - simple

So what difference would the change make ?

 

[Swango1980]

sorry but you keep failing to answer

What difference does it make - what is the real world crucial difference to you and all the members for the change to be implemented by all the ISVs ?

And can you really not understand that the NR is a “nil return of score “ as opposed to not entering the scorecard

when they fail to complete one or more holes they don’t have an “overall score” - the score is NR - simple

So what difference would the change make ?

I'm sorry, this discussion is completely over your head. Multiple people have responded, and you fail to absorb any information. Incredible, especially for such a simple innocent question in the first place.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm sorry, this discussion is completely over your head. Multiple people have responded, and you fail to absorb any information. Incredible, especially for such a simple innocent question in the first place.

Sorry it’s not over my head at all - I’m fully aware of the question and your issue with what is displayed but as with the others fail to provide what the real life issue is - what difference does it make to everyone associated with the sport -

the answer is “nothing” , it makes no difference at all , all golfers know and understand what it means to have NR displayed next to their name , unless you can provide a reason for the change to be made that affects the dynamics of the sport and the competition and the results

Maybe try and remove the rules head and have the golfer head on

If the R&A can have their results showing “NR” then I’m pretty sure all us golf clubs can get by without an issue having “NR” in the results ?

 

[wjemather]

sorry but you keep failing to answer

That's amusing given you still haven't explained why you want the systems to remain inconsistent with the rules of golf and (as touched on earlier) themselves. All you've done is repeat insubstantial statements such as "needless", "achieves nothing", "no need", "why", "what difference does it make", etc.

And can you really not understand that the NR is a “nil return of score “ as opposed to not entering the scorecard

For information, more than one ISV assigns NR to both “nil return of score (for one or more holes)“ and "not entering the scorecard".

 

[Deleted member 15344]

That's amusing given you still haven't explained why you want the systems to remain inconsistent with the rules of golf and (as touched on earlier) themselves. All you've done is repeat insubstantial statements such as "needless", "achieves nothing", "no need", "why", "what difference does it make", etc.


For information, more than one ISV assigns NR to both “nil return of score (for one or more holes)“ and "not entering the scorecard".

Can people not question “why” - when something the see is needless ?

Have you spoken to the ISVs to ask the question ? There are a number of ways to do.

The ISV’s clearly did it for a reason - it’s something that’s been going on for years without having any issues for comps scores or handicaps so surely it’s a valid question to ask why would it need to be changed ?

I don’t see the need for it to be changed - but you do but I’m unsure the reason why it would need to be changed and what affect it would have ?

And how does the ISV know when the card is not returned ? It’s manual entry with IG and was with CS - so it’s then a manual entry with a comment box

 

[wjemather]

Can people not question “why” - when something the see is needless ?

Yes, but "why?" is not an argument or counter-argument.

Have you spoken to the ISVs to ask the question ? There are a number of ways to do.

Yes. Answer: "Your query has been sent to the development team".
I've also raised this along with many other ISV related issues (e.g. the invalid all-zeros score for "no score returned" that gets sent to WHS) to England Golf, through our county/regional advisors. No response, other than "I don't know/can't help" from county/region.

And how does the ISV know when the card is not returned ? It’s manual entry with IG and was with CS - so it’s then a manual entry with a comment box

ClubV1 knows by the club official clicking the DQ checkbox and selecting the reason (additional comment optional); the system then enters "all zeros" and shows a DQ (both in the scores and reports), but HDID shows NR instead (presumably due to the algorithm which displays an NR when any medal hole is a zero overriding the set DQ for display purposes).

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes, but "why?" is not an argument or counter-argument.

Yes. Answer: "Your query has been sent to the development team".

ClubV1 knows by the club official clicking the DQ checkbox and selecting the reason (additional comment optional); the system then enters "all zeros" and shows a DQ (both in the scores and reports), but HDID shows NR instead (presumably due to the algorithm which displays an NR when any medal hole is a zero overriding the set DQ for display purposes).

Surely it’s relevant in this discussion when someone would like to know why you would want the change ?

So Club V1 knows by manually entering the Dq and reasons

IG - click DQ , enter the reason and that gets put at the bottom of results with “DQ - *reason for DQ”

If HDID changes a DQ that’s been manually entered to NR then that’s wrong and should rightly be challenged asking why HDID don’t publish the DQ

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Knowing you are out of the comp is not the same as knowing it's a DQ. Many would say they are out of the comp if returning a net 80+; it simply isn't the same thing at all.

The ISVs do it for historical reasons - because they were built primarily for handicapping not competitions, they followed how NR was defined and explained within UHS.

NR is not defined the same way in WHS, and ISVs are no longer primarily for handicapping. Things change, the systems need to catch up.

You are still not answering the question. Why argue against correctly showing a DQ?

And yet the Scottish Golf App & VMS both show a NR as NR not DQ. Weird eh? Almost like that is absolutely the accepted method of showing where a card has been returned, but a full 18 holes scored hasnt!

 

[wjemather]

And yet the Scottish Golf App & VMS both show a NR as NR not DQ. Weird eh? Almost like that is absolutely the accepted method of showing where a card has been returned, but a full 18 holes scored hasnt!

Not really. I can think of no good reason why handicapping software should show a DQ.
Competition management software (the subject of the original query) on the other hand...

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Not really. I can think of no good reason why handicapping software should show a DQ.
Competition management software (the subject of the original query) on the other hand...

VMS is competition management software provided by SG

 

[wjemather]

VMS is competition management software provided by SG

No, it's software provided for handicapping that includes competition functionality. (edited)

 

[Deleted member 30522]

No, it's handicapping software that provides competition functionality.

No, it is literally the full suite of operational tools from finance, membership, tee bookings through to competition management, that entirely replaces HDID

 

[wjemather]

No, it is literally the full suite of operational tools from finance, membership, tee bookings through to competition management, that entirely replaces HDID

Sorry, but it's primary purpose is handicapping, not competitions. Indeed (as noted earlier) most ISV software has been built this way.
By the way HDID is now simply a basic interface for members that provides none of these functions; ClubV1 (or Club2000) is the backend system.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Sorry, but you cannot simply ignore it's primary purpose.
By the way HDID is simply a basic interface for members that provides none of these functions; ClubV1 (or Club2000) is the backend system.

oh ffs, we all know that and tend to interchange the term.

VMS was specifically designed to give clubs a "free" admin tool in return for our subs, that was its primary purpose.

 

[wjemather]

VMS was specifically designed to give clubs a "free" admin tool in return for our subs, that was its primary purpose.

VMS was given away as a convenient solution to a multitude of expected problems with WHS and the existent multiple ISV environment (see the blame game being played out between the likes of England Golf and the ISVs). There is simply no way Scottish Golf could have got away with charging for it.

 

[Swango1980]

Sorry it’s not over my head at all - I’m fully aware of the question and your issue with what is displayed but as with the others fail to provide what the real life issue is - what difference does it make to everyone associated with the sport -

the answer is “nothing” , it makes no difference at all , all golfers know and understand what it means to have NR displayed next to their name , unless you can provide a reason for the change to be made that affects the dynamics of the sport and the competition and the results

Maybe try and remove the rules head and have the golfer head on

If the R&A can have their results showing “NR” then I’m pretty sure all us golf clubs can get by without an issue having “NR” in the results ?

Generally, there is no catastrophic real life issues caused by this (but I will name a smaller potential issue after this paragraph). I simply asked the question on an Expert forum to determine whether the competition result should really be DQ rather than NR. It seems conclusive that the real result is DQ, but some (like yourself) prefer to see NR "because they know what is really means".

Potential issue it has caused? Well, let me try. As we switched to WHS, the handicap authorities informed Committees that we would need to discipline players for persistent No Returns. That is, players that register for a handicap round, then simply do not return their score (or even do not return a full round as they quit playing). This is absolutely understandable based on how WHS works, as we can't just keep providing 0.1 increased like before.

However, when this topic was discussed on forums, you amongst others got your knockers in a twist. Started saying this is absolutely not right, and that it is not fair in asking players to finish out when they are having a bad day, bla bla bla. However, most of your arguments were completely irrelevant. Disciplinary procedures were never intended for players who pick up on holes in a medal because they were having a nightmare. It is simply for those that simply refuse to hand in their scores or stop playing altogether (not starting final holes).

Now, if competition results published DQ rather than NR, then perhaps much of this confusion would be blown away. Many would no longer associate picking up on a hole in medal as a No Return, they'd see it as a DQ. When they are told they should not No Return, they will see that for what it is, not returning their scorecard.

Just a thought anyway. However, personally speaking, it is not a serious enough question for me to take on the ISV's to demand change. It was a very simple question. What I do not understand is your strongly worded responses basically asking "what is the point". If you don't care, fine. But, I'm not asking you do change the issues yourself, so don't worry about it. It simply an issue that I think it is better to present the correct result on the Competition Results, rather than something different that many everyday golfers don't really understand.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Generally, there is no catastrophic real life issues caused by this (but I will name a smaller potential issue after this paragraph). I simply asked the question on an Expert forum to determine whether the competition result should really be DQ rather than NR. It seems conclusive that the real result is DQ, but some (like yourself) prefer to see NR "because they know what is really means".

Potential issue it has caused? Well, let me try. As we switched to WHS, the handicap authorities informed Committees that we would need to discipline players for persistent No Returns. That is, players that register for a handicap round, then simply do not return their score (or even do not return a full round as they quit playing). This is absolutely understandable based on how WHS works, as we can't just keep providing 0.1 increased like before.

However, when this topic was discussed on forums, you amongst others got your knockers in a twist. Started saying this is absolutely not right, and that it is not fair in asking players to finish out when they are having a bad day, bla bla bla. However, most of your arguments were completely irrelevant. Disciplinary procedures were never intended for players who pick up on holes in a medal because they were having a nightmare. It is simply for those that simply refuse to hand in their scores or stop playing altogether (not starting final holes).

Now, if competition results published DQ rather than NR, then perhaps much of this confusion would be blown away. Many would no longer associate picking up on a hole in medal as a No Return, they'd see it as a DQ. When they are told they should not No Return, they will see that for what it is, not returning their scorecard.

Just a thought anyway. However, personally speaking, it is not a serious enough question for me to take on the ISV's to demand change. It was a very simple question. What I do not understand is your strongly worded responses basically asking "what is the point". If you don't care, fine. But, I'm not asking you do change the issues yourself, so don't worry about it. It simply an issue that I think it is better to present the correct result on the Competition Results, rather than something different that many everyday golfers don't really understand.

So it causes no issues at all

And the second paragraph - you can still carry out any “disciplinary procedures” regardless of what it’s called

what’s this confusion you are talking about ? Picking up in medal is a “no return” - there is no confusion

There was no strongly worded response - it was as stated a conversation, you just appeared to not like the responses.

And why do you keep suggesting that “everyday golfers” don’t understand - maybe that’s the issue , you’re not an “every day golfer” hence the display of arrogance you display towards others - at the end of the day I suspect you are just a club HC/competition Secretary- the same as many of us on here are , I do it to help the club out and to help my fellow members - maybe you enjoy the power ?‍

 

[Swango1980]

So it causes no issues at all

And the second paragraph - you can still carry out any “disciplinary procedures” regardless of what it’s called

what’s this confusion you are talking about ? Picking up in medal is a “no return” - there is no confusion

There was no strongly worded response - it was as stated a conversation, you just appeared to not like the responses.

And why do you keep suggesting that “everyday golfers” don’t understand - maybe that’s the issue , you’re not an “every day golfer” hence the display of arrogance you display towards others - at the end of the day I suspect you are just a club HC/competition Secretary- the same as many of us on here are , I do it to help the club out and to help my fellow members - maybe you enjoy the power ?‍

No arrogance at all, just no respect for you as an individual.

Conversation over anyway, it is boring now. Ultimately, you confirmed my original question anyway. The true result is DQ. It is irrelevant whether or not the ISV's ever change it. I never asked for anyone to lobby for a change.