WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

[Banchory Buddha]

You demonstrate the confusion very well.

It is not acceptable to not return your card (which would fit the definition of "No Return" very well). It is acceptable to not finish a hole(s), this results in DQ for medal, but can still be used for handicap.

What? You're the one saying above that NRs are not acceptable, nobody else. If you're telling your members that no wonder they are annoyed at you. It's simply wrong.

And no, not physically returning your card is a straight DQ, it's absolutely not a No Return.

 

[Swango1980]

What? You're the one saying above that NRs are not acceptable, nobody else. If you're telling your members that no wonder they are annoyed at you. It's simply wrong.

And no, not physically returning your card is a straight DQ, it's absolutely not a No Return.

Let us be clear.

Failing to complete a hole in medal = disqualification. Still acceptable for handicap
Not returning a score = No Return (also DQ). Not acceptable for handicap (given that there are no scores at all to process)

"No Return" means that something has not been returned, in the case of this subject, the scores of that player's round. They have a responsibility to return their scores (even if they fail to complete any holes), therefore a No Return is unacceptable without a valid reason such as injury.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

By definition putting NR into a card DQ’s the person from the competition straight away - what’s the issue ?

And it’s a “non returned” score for that hole

As opposed to a “non returned” card for the competition which gives a different output on the system

A NR on a hole allows the card to be used for HC

A NR card doesn’t

 

[Swango1980]

By definition putting NR into a card DQ’s the person from the competition straight away - what’s the issue ?

Back to my original point. Howdidido does not show DQ. It shows No Return, even though the player may well have returned their score.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Back to my original point. Howdidido does not show DQ. It shows No Return, even though the player may well have returned their score.

That’s how all the ISVs display if someone puts NR in for one hole - it doesn’t need to display “DQ”.

If they have returned their score then there shouldn’t be NR ?‍

 

[Swango1980]

That’s how all the ISVs display if someone puts NR in for one hole - it doesn’t need to display “DQ”.

If they have returned their score then there shouldn’t be NR ?‍

Personally, this is not something that has really bothered me, or I've thought about. However, the reason it came up was that the Senior's Handicap Representative e-mailed me today to say he has contacted their Competition Sec to DQ two players who failed to complete a single hole (i.e. one hole, they completed 17 holes) in last weeks medal. They, as discussed, appear as NR on howdidido.

My initial instinct was to say, don't worry about it. From a handicap perspective the score still counts, and from a Competition perspective they still appear at the bottom of the leader board. However, technically he is correct. Their official Competition Result should be Disqualification, not No Return (they returned their cards). I could then see his potential concern, in that players are being asked to ensure they return their scores for Acceptable rounds, yet when they do howdidido defines their result as No Return.

So, it got me wondering. If a player fails to hole out on any hole in a medal, why not directly show them as DQ, as it is not a subjective call.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Personally, this is not something that has really bothered me, or I've thought about. However, the reason it came up was that the Senior's Handicap Representative e-mailed me today to say he has contacted their Competition Sec to DQ two players who failed to complete a single hole (i.e. one hole, they completed 17 holes) in last weeks medal. They, as discussed, appear as NR on howdidido.

My initial instinct was to say, don't worry about it. From a handicap perspective the score still counts, and from a Competition perspective they still appear at the bottom of the leader board. However, technically he is correct. Their official Competition Result should be Disqualification, not No Return (they returned their cards). I could then see his potential concern, in that players are being asked to ensure they return their scores for Acceptable rounds, yet when they do howdidido defines their result as No Return.

So, it got me wondering. If a player fails to hole out on any hole in a medal, why not directly show them as DQ, as it is not a subjective call.

You can ask the ISV to change it to show - NR - DQ if you wish but everyone knows the repercussions of not completing one hole , it’s not a new thing

why would someone DQ someone who has NR on one whole then the system has already de facto DQ’d them by nature if the NR

Talk about trying to complicate things unnecessarily.

 

[Swango1980]

You can ask the ISV to change it to show - NR - DQ if you wish but everyone knows the repercussions of not completing one hole , it’s not a new thing

why would someone DQ someone who has NR on one whole then the system has already de facto DQ’d them by nature if the NR

Talk about trying to complicate things unnecessarily.

Get up on the wrong side of bed today? Calm yourself down.

They would DQ them because, by the rules of golf they should be DQ. The system has not DQ'ed them, you just assume it is DQ because it says NR. It would be a lot more simple if the system said DQ when it means DQ rather then NR when it doesn't really mean No Return. If a player was in the draw and had signed in, but no score was entered for them, I could understand the system stating NR

 

[wjemather]

By the RoG players failing to return a score, or failing to complete one or more holes in medal play, are disqualified, and as such should be listed as DQ for competition results purposes. I'm not sure why anyone would argue differently.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Get up on the wrong side of bed today? Calm yourself down.

They would DQ them because, by the rules of golf they should be DQ. The system has not DQ'ed them, you just assume it is DQ because it says NR. It would be a lot more simple if the system said DQ when it means DQ rather then NR when it doesn't really mean No Return. If a player was in the draw and had signed in, but no score was entered for them, I could understand the system stating NR

?‍?‍

No one has “got up the wrong side of the bed”

It’s a conversation

When someone NR’s a hole they a DQ from the competition because they are no longer able to win the competition ( in medal play ) - there score goes to the bottom and it’s “NR” next to it because they are out of the competition and have been “de facto” DQ’d

If they haven’t been DQ from the competition what has happened then ?

If someone doesn’t return their card after the competition finishes then you click the button that’s says DQ - and then enter “card not returned”

 

[Swango1980]

?‍?‍

No one has “got up the wrong side of the bed”

It’s a conversation

When someone NR’s a hole they a DQ from the competition because they are no longer able to win the competition ( in medal play ) - there score goes to the bottom and it’s “NR” next to it because they are out of the competition and have been “de facto” DQ’d

If they haven’t been DQ from the competition what has happened then ?

If someone doesn’t return their card after the competition finishes then you click the button that’s says DQ - and then enter “card not returned”

So you agree then. If they are disqualified, then technically computer should say DQ, not NR?

If someone doesn't sign their card, the results will have DQ next to their name once the comp sec applies that sanction. So, if they fail to hole out on a hole, it should also say DQ. My query was simply, technically speaking, why can that not be applied automatically by the system?

In previous threads, you have also shown offence when it is suggested players could be disciplined for failing to meet their handicap responsibilities for not returning a score. Perhaps this confusing terminology used in the ISV's is exactly why you have unnecessarily got upset over this. Because, the NR's for the two players in this case are no issue at all in terms of handicapping, and if DQ had been used, maybe there would never have been emotional responses from players being told they should return their scores for handicapping

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So you agree then. If they are disqualified, then technically computer should say DQ, not NR?

If someone doesn't sign their card, the results will have DQ next to their name once the comp sec applies that sanction. So, if they fail to hole out on a hole, it should also say DQ. My query was simply, technically speaking, why can that not be applied automatically by the system?

In previous threads, you have also shown offence when it is suggested players could be disciplined for failing to meet their handicap responsibilities for not returning a score. Perhaps this confusing terminology used in the ISV's is exactly why you have unnecessarily got upset over this. Because, the NR's for the two players in this case are no issue at all in terms of handicapping, and if DQ had been used, maybe there would never have been emotional responses from players being told they should return their scores for handicapping

No one is upset about anything ?

The ISVs put “NR” into the overall score to highlight the people that have put a score into the system for a number of holes and that their score is still valid for HC purposes - as I said if you want the system to show “DQ” for someone not finishing one hole then raise the ticket with the ISV

If it “should” say DQ then I’m sure they will able the changes you require

And the terminology is very simple to follow - not sure what’s confusing ?‍ I have managed to follow it for the decade or so going comps and handicaps and our members understand the difference between a score not being entered for one hole and they are then NR’d and a scorecard not being returned - people already know that when they NR a hole in medal format they are de facto DQ’d from the competition so what difference will it make to have “DQ” next to their name as opposed to “NR”

 

[HampshireHog]

I would say the majority of golfers know what NR means on a scorecard.

Effectively, they are both DQ’s from the competition and everyone should know that.

To me, and most people I know:
NR means the player has voluntarily DQ’d themselves but not completing the full number holes.
DQ’s are handed out by the organiser or committee for an infringement, which is normally visible on the scoresheet.

Personally, I’d be more upset if I had a DQ against my name.

 

[wjemather]

I would say the majority of golfers know what NR means on a scorecard.

Effectively, they are both DQ’s from the competition and everyone should know that.

To me, and most people I know:
NR means the player has voluntarily DQ’d themselves but not completing the full number holes.
DQ’s are handed out by the organiser or committee for an infringement, which is normally visible on the scoresheet.

Personally, I’d be more upset if I had a DQ against my name.

Given you know that returning an NR for one or more holes in a medal is a DQ, why would you be upset if that's what the results sheet showed?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Given you know that returning an NR for one or more holes in a medal is a DQ, why would you be upset if that's what the results sheet showed?

Can you tell me what difference it makes ?

If everyone knows what a NR means and what happens when you don’t complete one or multiple holes does it really matter that it says “NR” as opposed to DQ next to the name ?

 

[wjemather]

Can you tell me what difference it makes ?

If everyone knows what a NR means and what happens when you don’t complete one or multiple holes does it really matter that it says “NR” as opposed to DQ next to the name ?

You keep saying "everyone knows", but they simply don't - assign them a DQ and many will ask why.

Why would you argue against having a DQ (which is correct) in favour of NR (which is not, even if some understand the DQ is implied)?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You keep saying "everyone knows", but they simply don't - assign them a DQ and many will ask why.

Why would you argue against having a DQ (which is correct) in favour of NR (which is not, even if some understand the DQ is implied)?

I haven’t found one single person who doesn’t know that when they NR a hole in a medal they are out of the competition - not one in 10 years plus , some didn’t realise their score could still count towards handicap over the years but they all knew that in a medal when they don’t complete a hole they are out of the competition.

If it’s not “correct” to have NR next to the name when a player NR’s why does every single ISV do it ?

So tell my there is a “need” to change it from showing NR to showing DQ ?

What difference does it make to everyone

 

[wjemather]

I haven’t found one single person who doesn’t know that when they NR a hole in a medal they are out of the competition - not one in 10 years plus , some didn’t realise their score could still count towards handicap over the years but they all knew that in a medal when they don’t complete a hole they are out of the competition.

If it’s not “correct” to have NR next to the name when a player NR’s why does every single ISV do it ?

So tell my there is a “need” to change it from showing NR to showing DQ ?

What difference does it make to everyone

Knowing you are out of the comp is not the same as knowing it's a DQ. Many would say they are out of the comp if returning a net 80+; it simply isn't the same thing at all.

The ISVs do it for historical reasons - because they were built primarily for handicapping not competitions, they followed how NR was defined and explained within UHS.

NR is not defined the same way in WHS, and ISVs are no longer primarily for handicapping. Things change, the systems need to catch up.

You are still not answering the question. Why argue against correctly showing a DQ?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Knowing you are out of the comp is not the same as knowing it's a DQ. Many would say they are out of the comp if returning a net 80+; it simply have isn't the same thing at all.

The ISVs do it for historical reasons - because they were built primarily for handicapping not competitions, they followed how NR was defined and explained within UHS.

NR is not defined the same way in WHS, and ISVs are no longer primarily for handicapping. Things change, the systems need to catch up.

You are still not answering the question. Why argue against correctly showing a DQ?

Because it’s a needless change - it achieves nothing , there is no need and as someone says being DQ for some has a bit of ill feeling when it could just be a consequence of poor shot etc why does it have to say “DQ” instead of NR

What is the practical real life reason for an ISV to make the change ?

Do you want to see 20 DQs instead of 20 NR’s ?‍

 

[Swango1980]

Because it’s a needless change - it achieves nothing , there is no need and as someone says being DQ for some has a bit of ill feeling when it could just be a consequence of poor shot etc why does it have to say “DQ” instead of NR

What is the practical real life reason for an ISV to make the change ?

Do you want to see 20 DQs instead of 20 NR’s ?‍

You are making in little sense in your side of the debate here. Especially as you fully acknowledge YOU are disqualified when you fail to hole out in a medal.

So why not have DQ in the results? It is the proper result. NR is not. I can only imagine you are that emotionally impacted upon when seeing DQ beside your name, that you are much more comforted by having NR instead. Perhaps people need to be a little less hurt by a DQ, realising that 99% of the time a DQ has nothing to do with a player acting without integrity, but simply a technicality or unfortunate accidental oversight, that this would not be an issue.

If you didn't sign your card, would you rather have DQ, NR or some other notification that gives you comfort?