WHS Handicap Index - Finally Revealed

[Swango1980]

Well, thankfully the guys at WHS have resolved one issue, as I just got a reply. When searching for a player in the Search Box, when their name appeared their Handicap Index was incorrectly shown as the Index before their last round, rather than their current Index (after that round). So, they've fixed this. Also, as I suspected, they confirmed that the Index on the Playing History is the Index that applied during that round, not after. I think this will still cause some confusion to golfers, so maybe better headings in the column to clarify that.

I guess this is why it was a good idea to give access to clubs a week before, gives us a chance to break it and hopefully some of us have enough knowledge to ask them the right questions, before it is sent out to the masses and potentially the WHS guys being inundated with queries (although, I guess that will still happen anyway)

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Just read some of the calculations basis, and as I have not played many comps, looks like I maybe getting a cut if I have worked it out correctly and if all the comps have been uploaded to HDID by the club. Based on the calculations for low number of cards submitted since 1/1/18.

Dum Dums

Not long to wait until it goes live.

 

[nickjdavis]

I guess this is why it was a good idea to give access to clubs a week before, gives us a chance to break it and hopefully some of us have enough knowledge to ask them the right questions, before it is sent out to the masses and potentially the WHS guys being inundated with queries (although, I guess that will still happen anyway)

1 week for us to review the data before the golfing masses get their mitts on it is not enough.....I have 99 golfers at my club who will not have an index as it stands (primarily due to an increase in membership in the last 3 months where they have had new handicaps allocated)....I also have maybe 25 golfers who's allocated index varies by more than 30% either way from its CONGU equivalent....I'm sure they will come looking for an explanation (especially the poor bugger who has gone from 5.8 CONGU to 1.9 WHS!!!!) as to why this is.

We will manage....but the authorities haven't made it easy for us!!!

 

[Bdill93]

1 week for us to review the data before the golfing masses get their mitts on it is not enough.....I have 99 golfers at my club who will not have an index as it stands (primarily due to an increase in membership in the last 3 months where they have had new handicaps allocated)....I also have maybe 25 golfers who's allocated index varies by more than 30% either way from its CONGU equivalent....I'm sure they will come looking for an explanation (especially the poor bugger who has gone from 5.8 CONGU to 1.9 WHS!!!!) as to why this is.

We will manage....but the authorities haven't made it easy for us!!!

Whats the slope/ course rating of your place?

Tried to calculate mine using the data provided above from my best 2 average (im a newer golfer) and it came out as 12 Im nowhere near a 12!!!

 

[nickjdavis]

Whats the slope/ course rating of your place?

Tried to calculate mine using the data provided above from my best 2 average (im a newer golfer) and it came out as 12 Im nowhere near a 12!!!

124 and 68.7

The poor bugger whos been given a 1.9 has a limited record (even though he's been a member for a few years) with only 3 scores in it, the best of which was a score differential of 3.9, from which they subtract 2 strokes.

You may be no where near a 12 but there are two points...

1) with few scores in your record your index will be quite volatile until you get some more scores in
2) you dont actually play off your index (as I'm sure you are aware)

 

[Swango1980]

1 week for us to review the data before the golfing masses get their mitts on it is not enough.....I have 99 golfers at my club who will not have an index as it stands (primarily due to an increase in membership in the last 3 months where they have had new handicaps allocated)....I also have maybe 25 golfers who's allocated index varies by more than 30% either way from its CONGU equivalent....I'm sure they will come looking for an explanation (especially the poor bugger who has gone from 5.8 CONGU to 1.9 WHS!!!!) as to why this is.

We will manage....but the authorities haven't made it easy for us!!!

I agree about the length of time. It would have been good if club committees had a chance to interrogate the WHS platform for a month or 2 at least before it went live. Giving the developers a chance to beta test it properly, have time to fix obvious errors, and refine it. Calculating the WHS Index values less than a month before launch and releasing these to the general golfing population a couple of weeks before launch seems incredibly last minute. Had golfers been able to check these out for a few months, and watch how their Index changes from one round to the next (before it is actually used on anger), it would have given golfers plenty of time to get used to the system, so when it went live, it would be less alien to many.

You'd have thought there would have been plenty of time to do this, given that I'm sure we were all talking about WHS over a year ago? I wonder how much Covid has set them back, if unexpected obstacles were discovered, or how much is to do with the fact that the Powers to Be don't think regular golfers have the attention span to find out about anything too far in advance because they'll just forget when the time comes to launch (an opinion I can't agree with)

 

[nickjdavis]

As an example of historical tracking of a WHS Index v. Congu I merged the WHS data with my own Congu record to compare how the systems track/compare based on the 40 scores since Jan 2018 that are in my record.

The early days WHS (blue line) volatility is clear to see but from then on the two lines track reasonably well until around round24/25 (June July 2019) I suffered a utter breakdown in my game....whereas the Congu handicap crept up in 0.1 increments until I got an exceptional score increase, the WHS index rose much more quickly. Likewise in the last three months I've seen a return to some degree of form and the WHS has dropped more quickly....so it appears to be generally more responsive.

 

[Swango1980]

124 and 68.7

The poor bugger whos been given a 1.9 has a limited record (even though he's been a member for a few years) with only 3 scores in it, the best of which was a score differential of 3.9, from which they subtract 2 strokes.

You may be no where near a 12 but there are two points...

1) with few scores in your record your index will be quite volatile until you get some more scores in
2) you dont actually play off your index (as I'm sure you are aware)

My mate has an Index of 6.1, and played 41 rounds since Jan 2018. However, it is interesting looking back at his earliest rounds and his Index calculation. For the first 3 rounds, 84, 73, 72 (CR=69.4), Handicap Index is shown as 0.2. 4th round he shot an 83, his Index went to 1.2. His 5th round, he then shot a 68 (course record), and his Index went to +1.2 So, if he had stopped there, he'd be better than scratch. Been downhill since then

 

[Ethan]

I often looked at the indexes of Americans I played with while on business in the US and reckoned that their index flattered them compared to us by a couple of shots. I assumed that was due to what seemed to me to be inflated course ratings.

At its core, the best 8 out of 20 model for handicap determination should not result in a very different handicap from the current CONGU, important qualifier here, for someone with a stable game. But a fast improving or deteriorating player will find WHS more responsive because it has a shorter frame of reference and allows greater movements in handicap.

In the new system, it seems like the handicap index is a similarly slightly flattering number to the US index I previously found flattering to the player, but the course handicap corrects it back to something closer to the current CONGU handicap. If someone asks you what your handicap is, I think quoting the index is fine because that is more comparative than the course handicap.

 

[Swango1980]

I often looked at the indexes of Americans I played with while on business in the US and reckoned that their index flattered them compared to us by a couple of shots. I assumed that was due to what seemed to me to be inflated course ratings.

At its core, the best 8 out of 20 model for handicap determination should not result in a very different handicap from the current CONGU, important qualifier here, for someone with a stable game. But a fast improving or deteriorating player will find WHS more responsive because it has a shorter frame of reference and allows greater movements in handicap.

In the new system, it seems like the handicap index is a similarly slightly flattering number to the US index I previously found flattering to the player, but the course handicap corrects it back to something closer to the current CONGU handicap. If someone asks you what your handicap is, I think quoting the index is fine because that is more comparative than the course handicap.

True, if someone asks what handicap you are, Index is really the only one that can be used if it is to be comparable to other people from other courses. However, come 2nd November, there will be significantly more people that can claim single figure handicap status than before. I wonder if it will be a proud moment for some to get into single figure status, even if they find their course handicap is always 10 or more (there seem to be very few courses with a Slope of 113 or less)

 

[rulefan]

That is what I was expecting. Anybody with a handicap would get a WHS handicap regardless.

However, that has not happened (for now). As with probably many clubs since lockdown reopened, we have had a lot of new members, and quite a few have done their 3 cards and got their first handicap. No problem there. But, the WHS System is now showing them with No WHS Handicap, but it instead says Pending. This looks to be also true for members who have been a member for years, but have not actually got "c" status because they've not submitted qualifying scores in last couple of years.

Now, I'm unsure if the fact it say Pending means that, in the next week England Golf will sort these out and then give a WHS handicap? Or, if it is up to Committee members at golf clubs to manually give these players a handicap (although, not exactly sure how this would be done, as a CONGU handicap is not directly comparable to a WHS Index). Or, nothing will be done, and then we will have a few dozen angry golfers next week (at my club alone) when they cannot get their Index, and they have a competition to play in

Pending usually means they are moving between clubs and one club hasn't completed the exercise or that the player has been entered into the system and hasn't got 3 cards in the system.

 

[Swango1980]

Pending usually means they are moving between clubs and one club hasn't completed the exercise or that the player has been entered into the system and hasn't got 3 cards in the system.

Not in this case however. For players who have already submitted 3 scores for their handicap, the WHS Platform has completely ignored these scores. It just says their handicap is Pending, No Scores entered. There is another chap who submitted his 3 cards, and then a supplementary card. He has no WHS Handicap, and the Platform says he has only 1 score in his playing History (i.e. his Supplementary)

 

[rulefan]

Well, thankfully the guys at WHS have resolved one issue, as I just got a reply. When searching for a player in the Search Box, when their name appeared their Handicap Index was incorrectly shown as the Index before their last round, rather than their current Index (after that round). So, they've fixed this. Also, as I suspected, they confirmed that the Index on the Playing History is the Index that applied during that round, not after. I think this will still cause some confusion to golfers, so maybe better headings in the column to clarify that.

I guess this is why it was a good idea to give access to clubs a week before, gives us a chance to break it and hopefully some of us have enough knowledge to ask them the right questions, before it is sent out to the masses and potentially the WHS guys being inundated with queries (although, I guess that will still happen anyway)

I have just had it confirmed (again) .

Q. So (for the transition) in effect it is the total recorded score (adjusted for net double bogey) minus CSS?
A. Yes

The WHS full playing record shows a box labelled "Current HI" and a column labelled "Revised HI".

 

[Swango1980]

I have just had it confirmed (again) .

Q. So (for the transition) in effect it is the total recorded score (adjusted for net double bogey) minus CSS?
A. Yes

The WHS full playing record shows a box labelled "Current HI" and a column labelled "Revised HI".

Where do you see this? I have just logged on, looking at my Playing History on WHS Platform, the Columns are:

Entered, Played, Course, Marker, Slope, Adj Gross, Course Rating, Score Diff, PCC, HDCP Index, Entered By

I see no sign of Current HI or Revised HI?

 

[nickjdavis]

Where do you see this? I have just logged on, looking at my Playing History on WHS Platform, the Columns are:

Entered, Played, Course, Marker, Slope, Adj Gross, Course Rating, Score Diff, PCC, HDCP Index, Entered By

I see no sign of Current HI or Revised HI?

me neither.

and as I've already proved with my own data....CSS is not used in the transitional score calculations.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Looking at the data on the EG Platform I notice the scores have not been updated since the beginning of the month despite the competitions being closed and the handicaps updated on our Club V1 system.

Is anyone else seeing this?

 

[jim8flog]

If you think you are hard done by

I was chatting to the County Adviser this morning

One player he knows of has gone from 9 to scratch

Only 5 cards in the system therefore based upon his best.

 

[Mozza14]

Looking at the data on the EG Platform I notice the scores have not been updated since the beginning of the month despite the competitions being closed and the handicaps updated on our Club V1 system.

Is anyone else seeing this?

Yes my last two cards are missing from WHS but have been adjusted in my CONGU Handicap.

 

[rulefan]

They probably extracted the CDH file onto an intermediate file a few days before running the transition test.

 

[nickjdavis]

...and are now waiting for ISV's to update their software so that October and ongoing results get pushed to the WHS