WHS doesn't work

Backsticks

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So the handicap system is only supposed to work in divisions then?
No, it works fine without divisions, in clubs that manage things well. Some clubs seem to have a problem though, and I havent heard any good theory why that is so.
Oh, and above 16 hcs should win most competitions anyway. The bias against them of the old system is gone, so now high hcs are winning their fair share. And there are more of them, so a lot more wins going their way as a group, and quite right.
 
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Captain_Black.

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Appreciate all the replies, it's certainly something I'm going to tackle with our Chairman & H/C secretary.
With singles comps it's pretty straightforward, but those who have said their clubs already run divisions, is this just for singles comps or do you have divisions for pairs & team comps?
If you do, how is it implemented?
Is it a multiplication of all the team members H/C 's to determine the divisions?

Our board comps have a H/C limit of 21 for men & 28 for Seniors.
If these were run in divisions (they aren't at the moment) who wins the Trophy?
 

Val

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How many players on your comps? If aiw number I'd half understand.

For the vast majority, 2 years down theine I think would agree the WHS is now settled and working fine
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Where it doesn’t ‘work‘ is when it dissuades members from playing in competitions and rollups they played in pre-WHS…especially midweek. There seems to be a strong feeling amongst a section of membership in my place that rollups are casual and such golf should not have to ‘count’ towards handicap in any way…and that includes simply being on your 20 round record.

Speakimg with our Head Pro today on Sat and Sun medal numbers…he is pretty certain that numbers playing have not been impacted by WHS.
 

Backsticks

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Where it doesn’t ‘work‘ is when it dissuades members from playing in competitions and rollups they played in pre-WHS…especially midweek. There seems to be a strong feeling amongst a section of membership in my place that rollups are casual and such golf should not have to ‘count’ towards handicap in any way…and that includes simply being on your 20 round record.

Speakimg with our Head Pro today on Sat and Sun medal numbers…he is pretty certain that numbers playing have not been impacted by WHS.
Is that resistance to not being able to manipulate their handicaps ?
Was that any different under the old system, or were roll ups non qualifying?
 

Backache

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Takes too long to go through all the results on our app but selecting 5 random competitions none was won by anyone with a handicap over 16 and 3 were won by low(<6hcp) golfers.
 

Blue in Munich

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Your club maybe isn't managing the handicaps and/or competition entry very well. It is easy to blame the system but if the club allows people to play the system then who is really at fault?

If the system allows people to keep a handicap without continuing to put cards in then how is the club to blame?

I ask because a playing partner fell victim to one of these.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Is that resistance to not being able to manipulate their handicaps ?
Was that any different under the old system, or were roll ups non qualifying?
They just don’t like the idea of having a ‘card in hand’ when playing what they consider casual and fun golf and golf that is not to be taken seriously. I don’t think there is much in their thinking around handicap manipulation.

I try arguing that rubbish rounds are very unlikely to ever matter and that (surely) we’d all want good rounds to recognised and reflected in our handicap. Falls on deaf ears. Every WHS round matters I am told as it has an impact by being recorded on the players rolling 20. If it’s there then by it’s very presence it will impact rounds that drop off as the 20 rolls. So in that respect, yes, some manipulation could be levelled at those thinking that way.

Rollups were non-qualifying. Some still are but some aren’t. Our main midweek Rollup is now a qualifying round and the numbers playing in it have dropped from 60-70 to the 39 of last Thursday…typical number post making it a qualifier.
 

Neilds

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If the system allows people to keep a handicap without continuing to put cards in then how is the club to blame?

I ask because a playing partner fell victim to one of these.
The club should/could make a condition of entry into competitions that a player has to have entered a set number of cards or competitions in a year. We have to have entered 3 competitions in a 12 month period to be eligible for board competitions
 

Backache

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They just don’t like the idea of having a ‘card in hand’ when playing what they consider casual and fun golf and golf that is not to be taken seriously. I don’t think there is much in their thinking around handicap manipulation.
Have to say I have a lot of sympathy with them . I really cannot be bothered with playing provisionals and holing everything out in a fun round of golf, just makes the round longer than necessary. I enjoy comps and am happy to play in them and enjoy causal golf much of which is matchplay. Just have zero interest in registering and putting in and messing around with cards for a quick casual game. Delighted that casual cards are allowed for those who wish but the idea that there is an obligation to do them is an anathema to me.
 

rulefan

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Where it doesn’t ‘work‘ is when it dissuades members from playing in competitions and rollups they played in pre-WHS…especially midweek. There seems to be a strong feeling amongst a section of membership in my place that rollups are casual and such golf should not have to ‘count’ towards handicap in any way…and that includes simply being on your 20 round record.
I think the difference between 'then' and 'now' is that 'then' CONGU permitted Supplementary Scores but 'now' WHS positively encourages General Play scores.
 

Backsticks

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I think the difference between 'then' and 'now' is that 'then' CONGU permitted Supplementary Scores but 'now' WHS positively encourages General Play scores.
With the goal of keeping handicaps as accurate as possible. I don't think anyone can object to that fundamental aim.
It might reduce the 'crazy' winning scores some clubs report.
 

Old Colner

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We don't have oodles of Board Comps, but the big ones are scratch, and where they are net, best net gets it.

At ours we have two divisions in the handicap comps but there is also an overall winner, the player with the lowest nett score.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Have to say I have a lot of sympathy with them . I really cannot be bothered with playing provisionals and holing everything out in a fun round of golf, just makes the round longer than necessary. I enjoy comps and am happy to play in them and enjoy causal golf much of which is matchplay. Just have zero interest in registering and putting in and messing around with cards for a quick casual game. Delighted that casual cards are allowed for those who wish but the idea that there is an obligation to do them is an anathema to me.
If it’s a friendly knock, match or suchlike non-competitive round then an NR on a hole isn’t going to matter…and you can have, I believe, up to 8 NRs for it not to matter in respect of a WHS round. So if you cant be bothered holing out on a hole or going back to play a provisional then just NR it. You’ll get a score for each NRd hole that’ll sink the card to the bottom of your pond of 20.
 

Crazyface

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Most of my h/c Scores have been in casual rounds. Thank god this is possible as conditions have favoured short hitters. But, I can see this being easy to manipulate. There really should be a way of logging proper comps and a minimum of x required. I also think anyone in the top three finishers should have their h/c dropped to what they scored. If they can do it once they can do it again.
 

Backache

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If it’s a friendly knock, match or suchlike non-competitive round then an NR on a hole isn’t going to matter…and you can have, I believe, up to 8 NRs for it not to matter in respect of a WHS round. So if you cant be bothered holing out on a hole or going back to play a provisional then just NR it. You’ll get a score for each NRd hole that’ll sink the card to the bottom of your pond of 20.
But as the overwhelming majority of my casual rounds are not played according to strict rules of golf. If I was to bother with the faff of submitting cards my handicap would inevitably inflate as they would be NR's. It would mean I'm more likely to win an actual competition as my hcap would be higher.
 

Backsticks

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But as the overwhelming majority of my casual rounds are not played according to strict rules of golf. If I was to bother with the faff of submitting cards my handicap would inevitably inflate as they would be NR's. It would mean I'm more likely to win an actual competition as my hcap would be higher.
Is that not the issue, and why some feel their handicaps are now uncompetitive ?

If some of the golfing population is complying with the whs principle, and as you say, their handicaps are going up (reflecting their real golf play, not just a subset of their rounds), but some are not, and so keeping their handicaps lower than whs expects, then they cannot complain about those using whs correctly, winning more .

Further, could this trend be more common among lower handicappers, who tend to be more reluctant to let their headline handicap rise and lose the prestige that gives ? And so further distancing themselves relatively, from high hcs ? And making them even less competitive than even the levelling of the playing field correction, that whs brought after uhc.
If so, no wonder they find they cannot compete as before - but much of it is self inflicted.
 
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