WHS doesn't work

[Alan Clifford]

The first sport that came to mind was boxing BUT
The World Boxing Association, (formerly known as the National Boxing Association, is the oldest) and one of four major organizations which sanction professional boxing bouts, alongside the World Boxing Council, International Boxing Federation and World Boxing Organization

Rather like using the word "best". As in the pgatour talking about "the best" golfer in the world when they are using a list that doesn't include the best golfers in the world.

 

[Genu9]

OK. Let's call it the "Regional Handicap System Consistent with Global Variations of other Regional Systems" or simply RHSCGVRS

Yes, really catchy. While we are at it, we can change the name of any organisation or system anywhere that contains "World", because inevitably there will be variations of some kind in various parts of the World in nearly all cases.

The term 'World' has become meaningless. Can't even use the term Unified, because they can't agree a unified system.

Who are WHS?

 

[rulefan]

The term 'World' has become meaningless. Can't even use the term Unified, because they can't agree a unified system.

Who are WHS?

At least CONGU made an attempt with the UHS which sort of managed to squeeze The Republic of Ireland into the UK.

The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews and The United States Golf Association​

 

[AussieKB]

My recollection is that Australia were a leader in developing and using data in correcting the bias towards low handicap players winning handicapped events, ie, they worked hard to balance the "odds".

And they failed.....at every course the majority by a long way is handicap winners in the range by 16 to 54,
when a single figure wins it is met with genuine surprise.

 

[rulie]

And they failed.....at every course the majority by a long way is handicap winners in the range by 16 to 54,
when a single figure wins it is met with genuine surprise.

The probability of a winner from any one of several groups also depends on the number of participants in each group. The greater number of participants in a group increases the probability that the winner will come from that group.

 

[AussieKB]

I will be there in May and be interested to hear from Locals on there thoughts, I know a couple of GM's and they have opposing thoughts, one a single figure thinks it is a joke and the other whose handicap has risen up to 18, was on 12 last time I was there thinks it is a great system.

 

[rulie]

I will be there in May and be interested to hear from Locals on there thoughts, I know a couple of GM's and they have opposing thoughts, one a single figure thinks it is a joke and the other whose handicap has risen up to 18, was on 12 last time I was there thinks it is a great system.

I thought that GA had used a consultant to do the analysis of thousands of rounds, matches and competitions? I used to have the reports at one time but can't find them now.

 

[AussieKB]

I thought that GA had used a consultant to do the analysis of thousands of rounds, matches and competitions? I used to have the reports at one time but can't find them now.

True, but they have put in at least 6 changes since it was first introduced......and I expect more to come, England has had the benefit of our mistakes or corrections to start their version of WHS, looking forward to playing in England again, but have told my English friends I am not giving them heaps of shots.....ha ha

 

[Genu9]

At least CONGU made an attempt with the UHS which sort of managed to squeeze The Republic of Ireland into the UK.

The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews and The United States Golf Association​

So who made the decision four years ago for GB&I to leave out CR-Par when the rest of the 'World' included it? At that point in time it ceased to be what it was supposed to be. Now four years late it's included.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

So who made the decision four years ago for GB&I to leave out CR-Par when the rest of the 'World' included it? At that point in time it ceased to be what it was supposed to be. Now four years late it's included.

My guess would be England Golf, Scotland Golf, Golf Ireland and Wales Golf...as a collective. The regional jurisdiction which can mould things; rightly or wrongly in the golfer's minds

 

[D-S]

One of the tests is if a golfer with an HI of say 18.0 turned up at your golf club, whether as a new member or in an Open, coming from Australia, USA, Spain or wherever having played enough qualifying rounds in the past 12 months in her/his home country - would you let her/him play in the next competition, potentially winning your members money and having her/his name on the club board?
I think the answer in almost all cases is yes - although bizarrely in a lot of cases not in your Open if they were an iGolfer.
This would not have been the case pre WHS, so in this instance it is a World system, like it or not.

 

[Swango1980]

So who made the decision four years ago for GB&I to leave out CR-Par when the rest of the 'World' included it? At that point in time it ceased to be what it was supposed to be. Now four years late it's included.

The same people who decided that Most Likely Score would not be acceptable scores for handicap.

Perhaps they made some decisions that turned out to be inappropriate, and in other situations they may have made some decisions that most UK golfers would be happy with.

 

[Swango1980]

One of the tests is if a golfer with an HI of say 18.0 turned up at your golf club, whether as a new member or in an Open, coming from Australia, USA, Spain or wherever having played enough qualifying rounds in the past 12 months in her/his home country - would you let her/him play in the next competition, potentially winning your members money and having her/his name on the club board?
I think the answer in almost all cases is yes - although bizarrely in a lot of cases not in your Open if they were an iGolfer.
This would not have been the case pre WHS, so in this instance it is a World system, like it or not.

Why wouldn't you?

As far as I'm aware, their Index (or whatever term might be used in another jurisdiction) is calculated in exactly the same way as us. That is the point of the WORLD handicap system. Whatever they do to the Index to get a Course or Playing Handicap in any country is irrelevant.

The only way it might be argued that an Index from another country is inappropriate would be if Course Ratings, Bogey Ratings (and thus Slope ratings) are determined using inconsistent methodologies. As far as I'm aware, this is not the case.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

One of the tests is if a golfer with an HI of say 18.0 turned up at your golf club, whether as a new member or in an Open, coming from Australia, USA, Spain or wherever having played enough qualifying rounds in the past 12 months in her/his home country - would you let her/him play in the next competition, potentially winning your members money and having her/his name on the club board?
I think the answer in almost all cases is yes - although bizarrely in a lot of cases not in your Open if they were an iGolfer.
This would not have been the case pre WHS, so in this instance it is a World system, like it or not.

Yes, why wouldn’t you?

It always baffles me when golfers look on everyone who is not a member of ‘their’ club with suspicion or as if they are somehow a lower status because they are a visitor.

 

[AussieKB]

I have played in Competitions here with a handicap ranging from 0 to 6 because of slope and CR-PR, due to IMHO to the slope ratings used to valuate a course are for a USA style golf course, and CR-PR was done for OZ courses, I could to take you to places here where your head would spin.

Most are fine but I play 50% of my golf at away courses, so my handicap goes up and down like a yoyo

 

[wjemather]

People saying WHS is not (really) a "world" system probably need to have a better understanding of the word "system".

Edit: Or stop deliberately choosing an inappropriate definition in order to be critical.

 

[wjemather]

At least CONGU made an attempt with the UHS which sort of managed to squeeze The Republic of Ireland into the UK.

As far as I remember, UHS was the result of CONGU and the LGU working together to standardise handicapping for men and women across GB&I.

Handicapping for men across GB&I was standardised with the first Standard Scratch Score and Handicapping scheme (in the 1920s), but there were still minor variances between countries right up until WHS came in.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

People saying WHS is not (really) a "world" system probably need to have a better understanding of the word "system".

Or indeed yourself, when a system is paired with "world" and used as an adjective. It's a network for the world.

 

[Slab]

One of the tests is if a golfer with an HI of say 18.0 turned up at your golf club, whether as a new member or in an Open, coming from Australia, USA, Spain or wherever having played enough qualifying rounds in the past 12 months in her/his home country - would you let her/him play in the next competition, potentially winning your members money and having her/his name on the club board?
I think the answer in almost all cases is yes - although bizarrely in a lot of cases not in your Open if they were an iGolfer.
This would not have been the case pre WHS, so in this instance it is a World system, like it or not.

I'm not sure I'd be all that welcome at some courses & hopefully @Bdill93 doesn't mind me using his course for ref (this came up many many pages back)

His tips are CR/SR 67.1/122 @ 5,500 yrds par 69 : I'm an overseas index of 14.5 so according to their course handicap table I'd rock up one sunny morning, check the table and get a CH of 16
Now I'm not a betting man but I might put a shekel or two on Slab EW (not to blow any trumpets) because the closest tees at my home club to that CR/SR means I play off CH of 12 for what's still a longer course even off our forward tees

Some forumers have been patient in trying to explain to me how that all works but it still fogs my noodle

 

[wjemather]

Or indeed yourself, when a system is paired with "world" and used as an adjective. It's a network for the world.

View attachment 52483

So you are choosing what you want it to mean. Got it.

I've edited by post accordingly.