WHS doesn't work

[wjemather]

It would only need a small % to be taken from Comp entry fees for this to happen. After all its in Comps that accurate H/caps matter most!!

Our total income from entry fees for 2023 was just under £20000, of which 80% is directly paid out in prizes.
80% of the rake is allocated before the season starts (to cover various costs, prizes and external entry fees), leaving under £500 for any ad-hoc expenditure and expenses - not enough to fund a paid position for 1 hour per week.

 

[Alan Clifford]

How are foreign 4bbb played in another jurisdiction going to be handled by England Golf when their "machine precision" system has absolutely no information about the other 3 players

 

[rulefan]

How are foreign 4bbb played in another jurisdiction going to be handled by England Golf when their "machine precision" system has absolutely no information about the other 3 players

What information does it need about the other players? How does it obtain this information for a rund played in England or GB&I ?

 

[Alan Clifford]

What information does it need about the other players? How does it obtain this information for a rund played in England or GB&I ?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the process used by the machine. The team has to return a net score of 6 better than par. If the EG system doesn't know about your playing partner, how can it work out the team score? Similary, how does the machine know if you have contributed 9 times to the team without it having knowledge of the other team member's and the opposition's scores?

Or doesn't the machine work it all out from handicaps and gross scores?

 

[nickjdavis]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the process used by the machine. The team has to return a net score of 6 better than par. If the EG system doesn't know about your playing partner, how can it work out the team score? Similary, how does the machine know if you have contributed 9 times to the team without it having knowledge of the other team member's and the opposition's scores?

Or doesn't the machine work it all out from handicaps and gross scores?

There is no "opposition" in 4BBB. The other two players are simply another pair in the competition....their handicaps and scores have no relevance to your or your partners scores, and which one of them contributes to your team score. All the system needs to know is the scores for each player in your pair.

However...regarding your partners score (assuming that for example "you" are the one playing outside your normal jurisdiction) I can see there may be an issue if there is no way of communicating your partners scores back to EG, as there would be no way of determining if your score, or his, was the contributing score. Ultimately, the back end system would be responsible for determining if there was a case for the score being included in a players record...but it can only do that if it knows about your partner...I don't know the answer to that one....edit...actually, thinking about it, maybe I do know the answer....

...it may be that the calculations are all done by the WHS back end system of the jurisdiction you are playing in and they simply report your score differential back to your home jurisdiction (EG) for inclusion in your record.

 

[D-S]

What information does it need about the other players? How does it obtain this information for a rund played in England or GB&I ?

Foreign ISVs won’t be able to upload 4BB scores- it looks touch and go whether UK ones can from 1/4.

 

[D-S]

...it may be that the calculations are all done by the WHS back end system of the jurisdiction you are playing in and they simply report your score differential back to your home jurisdiction (EG) for inclusion in your record.

I don’t think the two (foreign and UK ) 4 BB scores are comparable. Many jurisdictions use MLS to cope with ‘incomplete’ holes and CONGU will use the scale up points method. I don’t see how the software can cope with both - a hole not scored on in SA will be a nett double bogey for handicapping purposes but possibly 1 or 1.5 points in CONGU.

 

[rulie]

I don’t think the two (foreign and UK ) 4 BB scores are comparable. Many jurisdictions use MLS to cope with ‘incomplete’ holes and CONGU will use the scale up points method. I don’t see how the software can cope with both - a hole not scored on in SA will be a nett double bogey for handicapping purposes but possibly 1 or 1.5 points in CONGU.

It's a World Handicapping System, except when it isn't! The national golf associations have to get their licks in.

 

[nickjdavis]

I don’t think the two (foreign and UK ) 4 BB scores are comparable. Many jurisdictions use MLS to cope with ‘incomplete’ holes and CONGU will use the scale up points method. I don’t see how the software can cope with both - a hole not scored on in SA will be a nett double bogey for handicapping purposes but possibly 1 or 1.5 points in CONGU.

I agree....I will have to stop living in my utopian vision where the WHS looks, acts and works like a common system across all jurisdictions.

So my response to @Alan Clifford has to be tempered with..."in an ideal world" and "all things being equal" and "assuming that MLS isnt used to generate missing scores instead of the "scaling up" of missing holes method".

It really is a bit of a quagmire.

 

[Alan Clifford]

I agree....I will have to stop living in my utopian vision where the WHS looks, acts and works like a common system across all jurisdictions.

So my response to @Alan Clifford has to be tempered with..."in an ideal world" and "all things being equal" and "assuming that MLS isnt used to generate missing scores instead of the "scaling up" of missing holes method".

It really is a bit of a quagmire.

QHS rather than WHS?

 

[D-S]

We have been / are told that it is as perfect as it can get, then they will make a change and again this will be heralded as the new perfect, then another change will be made and be defended to the hilt until another ‘improvement’ comes along which will be again make it as perfect as it can get and don’t you dare say otherwise as it is perfect and doesn’t need changing ……..until it’s changed again and defended again.

Oh and it’s simple, easy and quick to administer (better than before) but all depends on the diligence, competency, patience, time and effort put in by committees otherwise it’s a show.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Going from England to South Africa

Where possible enter all their Adjusted Gross Scores for rounds played over the last year into the HNA System. This must be done using the Foreign Round score entry procedure

Going from South Africa to England

At the end of the period away, the player should take a copy of their record whilst residing abroad to allow these scores to be input at their home club and thus adjust their handicap accordingly on the home system

Twice a year, I would have to do the former on the HNA app/website and, twice a year, the bloke at my club in England would have to do the latter.

For practical purposes, I keep both current.

4bbb entry has been easy so far. It is an allowable format in South Africa so could be entered on the English system when played in South Africa. But now it is allowable in England but with different rules from South Africa, so two dilemmas: how to enter South African 4bbb into EG and how to enter English 4bbb into HNA.

I know I am an edge case and it's early days for a world wide handicap system but using two different methods makes it increasing difficult to keep the handicaps the same. Practically speaking, I'm unlikely to have a 4bbb in England and I expect the easy way out for my English club is to enter a South African 4bbb into the EG system using the South African algorithm.

 

[D-S]

Going from England to South Africa


Going from South Africa to England


Twice a year, I would have to do the former on the HNA app/website and, twice a year, the bloke at my club in England would have to do the latter.

For practical purposes, I keep both current.

4bbb entry has been easy so far. It is an allowable format in South Africa so could be entered on the English system when played in South Africa. But now it is allowable in England but with different rules from South Africa, so two dilemmas: how to enter South African 4bbb into EG and how to enter English 4bbb into HNA.

I know I am an edge case and it's early days for a world wide handicap system but using two different methods makes it increasing difficult to keep the handicaps the same. Practically speaking, I'm unlikely to have a 4bbb in England and I expect the easy way out for my English club is to enter a South African 4bbb into the EG system using the South African algorithm.

That’s an interesting dilemma and it won’t be unbelievably rare as it will possibly affect anyone who has an HI in a jurisdiction outside CONGU as well as a CONGU one. In your case SA to UK is straightforward but how will SA or any other overseas jurisdiction input 4BB derived scores that will appear on a player’s record. If they can’t you won’t have identical records and therefore a correct HI that is portable worldwide, a key tenet of WHS.

 

[Imurg]

And this is going live on......

April 1st??

 

[wjemather]

We have been / are told that it is as perfect as it can get, then they will make a change and again this will be heralded as the new perfect, then another change will be made and be defended to the hilt until another ‘improvement’ comes along which will be again make it as perfect as it can get and don’t you dare say otherwise as it is perfect and doesn’t need changing ……..until it’s changed again and defended again.

I don't recall anyone ever claiming any handicap system as being "perfect". Best and most equitable system yet, certainly, but never perfect because that is unattainable.

 

[wjemather]

Going from England to South Africa


Going from South Africa to England


Twice a year, I would have to do the former on the HNA app/website and, twice a year, the bloke at my club in England would have to do the latter.

For practical purposes, I keep both current.

4bbb entry has been easy so far. It is an allowable format in South Africa so could be entered on the English system when played in South Africa. But now it is allowable in England but with different rules from South Africa, so two dilemmas: how to enter South African 4bbb into EG and how to enter English 4bbb into HNA.

I know I am an edge case and it's early days for a world wide handicap system but using two different methods makes it increasing difficult to keep the handicaps the same. Practically speaking, I'm unlikely to have a 4bbb in England and I expect the easy way out for my English club is to enter a South African 4bbb into the EG system using the South African algorithm.

The rules for the calculation of score differentials are determined by the jurisdiction where the round is played.

 

[wjemather]

That’s an interesting dilemma and it won’t be unbelievably rare as it will possibly affect anyone who has an HI in a jurisdiction outside CONGU as well as a CONGU one. In your case SA to UK is straightforward but how will SA or any other overseas jurisdiction input 4BB derived scores that will appear on a player’s record. If they can’t you won’t have identical records and therefore a correct HI that is portable worldwide, a key tenet of WHS.

As with any other scores, the handicap committee simply need to enter the appropriate adjusted gross score (and ensure the course & slope ratings and par are correct).

 

[Alan Clifford]

The rules for the calculation of score differentials are determined by the jurisdiction where the round is played.

That's good to know. I've not found this in the rules - can you point me in the right direction.

 

[2blue]

Our total income from entry fees for 2023 was just under £20000, of which 80% is directly paid out in prizes.
80% of the rake is allocated before the season starts (to cover various costs, prizes and external entry fees), leaving under £500 for any ad-hoc expenditure and expenses - not enough to fund a paid position for 1 hour per week.

£4K for these seems a rather large cost to come from Comp fees rather than Membership fees. Shouldn't some of these costs be shared by other members rather than just those entering the Clubs Comps?

 

[wjemather]

£4K for these seems a rather large cost to come from Comp fees rather than Membership fees. Shouldn't some of these costs be shared by other members rather than just those entering the Clubs Comps?

They're all competition related costs - software (20% of the total; so 80% is paid by the club), prizes, trophies, boards, external entry fees, etc.