WHS doesn't work

[RichA]

Lots of anecdotal evidence that players under 16 are not winning comps.
Ok, the ground conditions have favoured the shorter hitters, but really!!!
It seems to me, once a handicap exceeds 18 anyone lower than that will struggle to compete.

Apart from the usual suspects who i'm sure are maintaining a high handicap which sadly exist at all clubs, it's quite incredible.
As policing handicaps on an individual basis is impossible, I think the only answer is to split every comp into handicap divisions & split the prize pot accordingly.

Most of our comps this year have been won with <36 points.
A low handicap player has won more than anyone else.
A +1 golfer won a non-club competition last month with a gross 66 that would have equated to 40 points.
Anecdotal evidence that the system works ok at ours.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I’ve just been knocked out of the club knockout by someone with a course HC nearly 4 times mine.

I had 5 pars and 4 bogies on the front 9. Which is playing to my handicap, and was 4 down

Sometimes someone just has a good round. Sometimes the course is set up in a favourable way and the conditions are easier. Ours was playing short with lots of pins in easy to access locations.

I haven’t gone through the scores in detail, but I think I would have needed to be under par gross to have had a chance of winning the match.

 

[RichA]

Lots of anecdotal evidence that players under 16 are not winning comps.
Ok, the ground conditions have favoured the shorter hitters, but really!!!
It seems to me, once a handicap exceeds 18 anyone lower than that will struggle to compete.

Apart from the usual suspects who i'm sure are maintaining a high handicap which sadly exist at all clubs, it's quite incredible.
As policing handicaps on an individual basis is impossible, I think the only answer is to split every comp into handicap divisions & split the prize pot accordingly.

What the does the bit in bold mean, out of interest?

 

[upsidedown]

Most of our comps this year have been won with <36 points.
A low handicap player has won more than anyone else.
A +1 golfer won a non-club competition last month with a gross 66 that would have equated to 40 points.
Anecdotal evidence that the system works ok at ours.

Seniors Stableford Board comp today, handicap range from 5 to 29 and 48 entries. 5 handicapper won with 37 points, he had a bad run of form recently and went up to 5 last night but will be back to 4 tomorrow , might know him rather well

 

[Tashyboy]

Re WHS, my head is spinning.
My hcap is 17.7, last season I got 19 shots off the whites and 18 off the yellows. Competitions were white pots with three divisions and yellow pots for the seniors. This season and don’t ask me why, But because you can choose to play off any coloured pot the shots you receive for the comp has changed. For example if I play off the yellow pots I now get 19 shots. If I play off the white pots I get 22. And now there’s no white comp or yellow comp. Everyone is lumped together in one comp with 3 or four divisions. No one at the club seems to understand why it has happened, certainly not in our fuddle. But why has it changed this year and not last year. Some of the division one players are bogged off coz they have gone from div 1 to div 2.
I asked our club secretary re why the extra shots and he said it is “to make the competition fairer”.
Anyone else seen the competition format change at there place

 

[Swango1980]

Re WHS, my head is spinning.
My hcap is 17.7, last season I got 19 shots off the whites and 18 off the yellows. Competitions were white pots with three divisions and yellow pots for the seniors. This season and don’t ask me why, But because you can choose to play off any coloured pot the shots you receive for the comp has changed. For example if I play off the yellow pots I now get 19 shots. If I play off the white pots I get 22. And now there’s no white comp or yellow comp. Everyone is lumped together in one comp with 3 or four divisions. No one at the club seems to understand why it has happened, certainly not in our fuddle. But why has it changed this year and not last year. Some of the division one players are bogged off coz they have gone from div 1 to div 2.
I asked our club secretary re why the extra shots and he said it is “to make the competition fairer”.
Anyone else seen the competition format change at there place

Because, if you play off mixed tees, you need to take the difference in their course ratings into account. If it was all the same tees, that does not matter.

 

[Tashyboy]

Because, if you play off mixed tees, you need to take the difference in their course ratings into account. If it was all the same tees, that does not matter.

I thought that was already taken into consideration re slope index, difficulty of course etc. which is how you get X number of shots on whites, yellows etc.

 

[Alan Clifford]

I thought that was already taken into consideration re slope index, difficulty of course etc. which is how you get X number of shots on whites, yellows etc.

In other jurisdictions it is but not in England. So you have to do another calculation, in England, as @Swango1980 said, for mixed tee competitions

 

[Voyager EMH]

At my club both tees par 70.

White: 70.8 and 132
Yellow 69.1 and 127.

White gross 80 = score differential of 7.9
Yellow gross 78 = score differential of 7.9

Therefore players competing against each other in singles stableford, but from different tees, a 2-shot addition to handicap is required.

 

[Swango1980]

I thought that was already taken into consideration re slope index, difficulty of course etc. which is how you get X number of shots on whites, yellows etc.

Alan and Voyager have clarified anyway. So just to add really, the rest of the world include CR-Par in the course handicap, we don't. Although talk that we will in the near future.

Imagine your whites had a CR 4 higher than the yellows, and think of a player with index 0.0. In a competition off yellows only, that player had a handicap 0. Same if competition is off whites only.

However, if players could play off either tee, it would make no sense to play off whites if the player played off 0 for both. This is why, if playing off whites a player would need 4 extra shots compared to if they played off yellows

 

[Tashyboy]

Cheers guys for the info. Last question, what’s the thought process behind some do include CR-Par but we don’t and why might we be changing in the near future

 

[Swango1980]

Cheers guys for the info. Last question, what’s the thought process behind some do include CR-Par but we don’t and why might we be changing in the near future

I think everyone pretty much included CR-Par, except us.

I felt it was an unusual, and poor decision personally. I suspect part of the reason was than we never included SSS in the players handicap pre WHS, so why include CR now?

 

[Tashyboy]

I think everyone pretty much included CR-Par, except us.

I felt it was an unusual, and poor decision personally. I suspect part of the reason was than we never included SSS in the players handicap pre WHS, so why include CR now?

I remember once asking at school. “ Miss am I a male or female”. Half the class laughed. She took me to the next class room and asked me to ask the teacher who was taking the year above. Again I asked the question. 3/4 of the class laughed. Eventually I was told I was a Male. I was 11 yr old and felt a ***. No one had ever told me. During the day at least 6 kids told me they were glad I asked as they didn’t know and like me had never been told.
Me point is I now understand it but the club had never informed us why the change in club format and shot changes.
Cheers guys.

 

[jim8flog]

Looks like the change to the PCC calculation works better.

4 scores in April and May have been subject to a PCC alteration

Monday's comp 61 players only 3 bettered their handicap - PCC of 2

 

[sunshine]

Other than in people’s head because they think their monthly medal or captains day is a serious competition, it’s really not.

To borrow the words of Bill Shankly, some people believe the monthly medal is a matter of life and death. I can assure you it is much more important than that. Winning the June medal in 2012 was a career highlight, I celebrated with a massive party and a big holiday. To keep my wife happy I told her it was our wedding and honeymoon, but really it was to mark my greatest achievement. Because there isn't a board in the clubhouse for monthly medals, I bought my own mahogany for the living room at home. It was a really good investment, over the last 10 years I've now added the March Stableford, Captain's day, and charity scramble nearest the pin.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Alan and Voyager have clarified anyway. So just to add really, the rest of the world include CR-Par in the course handicap, we don't. Although talk that we will in the near future.

Imagine your whites had a CR 4 higher than the yellows, and think of a player with index 0.0. In a competition off yellows only, that player had a handicap 0. Same if competition is off whites only.

However, if players could play off either tee, it would make no sense to play off whites if the player played off 0 for both. This is why, if playing off whites a player would need 4 extra shots compared to if they played off yellows

At my place Yellows and Whites both par 72. CR Yellow = 70.0; CR White = 71.6. Playing mixed tees a balancing adjustment of -2 is applied to the PH of those playing off Yellows. There is some confusion though as some think the adjustment when playing a stableford scoring comp is to take 2pts off their final pts tally. I can't be bothered thinking about whether or not that makes any difference.

 

[Springveldt]

At my club both tees par 70.

White: 70.8 and 132
Yellow 69.1 and 127.

White gross 80 = score differential of 7.9
Yellow gross 78 = score differential of 7.9

Therefore players competing against each other in singles stableford, but from different tees, a 2-shot addition to handicap is required.

I wonder if we will ever get to the point that club competitions just use the differential to determine the winner and allow people to play which tees they want, at least for Medals.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I wonder if we will ever get to the point that club competitions just use the differential to determine the winner and allow people to play which tees they want, at least for Medals.

Now there's a thought.

HI - SD = how much you beat your handicap by.

 

[IanM]

I working on some AI that will predict what you would have scored and award prizes based on that. Think of the time it'll save!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I wonder if we will ever get to the point that club competitions just use the differential to determine the winner and allow people to play which tees they want, at least for Medals.

I'd vote for that. I'd be happy to play off yellow tees for ever more .

I only play off the whites at our place because it is the only way to get a game on a Saturday. It would be interesting if the club did a trial and we saw how many went off whites and how many went off yellows.

On a similar theme, when I'm looking at Opens, me and my friends rule out the bigger courses, Bedlington, Rockcliffe, Roxburghe as examples because off the whites they are too much of a slog, I know because we have played them and discovered it. We would happily enter them if they had a yellow tee option.