WHS doesn't work

[rulefan]

If they don’t think they have any chance of winning the comp, the only reason for submitting the score is for handicapping.

But they have the possibility that they may win and that they like to play 'competitively' with friends or others in their group and for the general bonhomie of the Saturday stableford/medal. The possible effect on their handicap is often only secondary.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Thanks for the debate everyone.
Like many, many others as a volunteer and having spent a couple of thousand hours on all things competition & handicaps over the last 5 years the theory of WHS intentions and reality of WHS in real life could probably do with some tweaks. I should add that I think England Golf and all the volunteers that did the ratings etc. did a brilliant job especially considering the magnitude of the change.

My club does have a relatively high Slope (132-140) and broadly CR=Par but I am really fed up with seeing poor scores from members on the same day visitors are returning 40+ points. Hence I would like to see PCC calculations split up.
I'll couple this with some numbers from our last AGM. We have about 100 inter-club matches per year. 2021 saw some horrific statistics but WHS was bedding in. An improvement in 2022, we lost 25% of Home matches but only won 8% of Aways. Other Clubs' members coming to ours are largely getting an extra 2-4 on their PH. Conversely our members are typically losing a similar PH amount when going to away matches.
I was initially sceptical but I am now 100% confident that our course was rated correctly to comply with the USGA Course Rating System (tm). Maybe that's where an issue lies?

I don't understand this bit at all.
No one can get "get extra" on their playing handicap.
No one can be "losing" an amount on their playing handicap.
If a home player and an away player have the same Handicap Index, then their playing handicaps will be the same. No "extra" or "losing" either way.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't understand this bit at all.
No one can get "get extra" on their playing handicap.
No one can be "losing" an amount on their playing handicap.
If a home player and an away player have the same Handicap Index, then their playing handicaps will be the same. No "extra" or "losing" either way.

I'd suggest that 'away' players tend to play an unfamiliar course with much less 'fear of knowing' than home players. I think we all know that 'fear' when we stand over that shot on that hole. As a result visitors can often score well over an unfamiliar course - well that's certainly my experience.

 

[D-S]

I wonder whether people can remember the rationale that CONGU had when they introduced home and away CSS.

 

[tobybarker]

Using a football analogy as everyone thinks they understand how football works, Liverpool beat Man Utd a few weeks ago 7-1, does this make Liverpool the best team in league and United the worst team, of course it doesn't, you are where you are because of 30 odd games, Same with golf, you are not automatically as good or bad as your last score, you are where you are after your performances over the last 20 games

but you are about as good as your previous 5, 8 or 10.....ie current form (which is why everyone should be putting in very regular cards)

 

[IanM]

A few years ago when I was member at Bowood, a chap was drawn with us in a medal we'd never met before.

He was in his 50s, wore a checked cotton shirt with the long sleeves rolled up. He had an old carry bag and some old blades.

He glided round the course and shot 73 gross without much effort.

When asked his handicap, he said he didn't bother with such things if that as he only played for fun.

I'm increasingly liking his thinking!

 

[jim8flog]

The only reason they are submitting a GP score is for handicapping.

One of our swindles has a rule that you can only go in to kitty if you sign up for a GP score before going out.
It has helped to cut the legs off a couple of the bandits who would never put one in.

 

[jim8flog]

I wonder whether people can remember the rationale that CONGU had when they introduced home and away CSS.

I can remember that there was one CSS calculation for home players and another for visitors in Opens.

 

[IanM]

One of our swindles has a rule that you can only go in to kitty if you sign up for a GP score before going out.
It has helped to cut the legs off a couple of the bandits who would never put one in.

That "outs" the blighters! Excellent idea.

 

[Teebs]

PCC on our May Medal yesterday was +2.

Over 110 entries over 3 divisions and around only 5 scores under net par.
Course was playing long off the Whites with the soft ground.

 

[Springveldt]

PCC on our May Medal yesterday was +2.

Over 110 entries over 3 divisions and around only 5 scores under net par.
Course was playing long off the Whites with the soft ground.

We had a PCC of +1 on Saturday, it’s the first time I’ve ever seen an adjustment at our place. I only noticed since England Golf had my 78 as a counting score and knocking an older 77 out of the scoring.

We had 3 guys under par, 2 on par and another 2 at the course rating, so 7 out of 108 played to the course rating.

The winner was a 24 handicapper who had a 64 (-7.1 on course rating) with a 10 and a 7 on the scorecard. Round of his life I guess considering he was only +10 for 16 of the holes with the course playing long with all the wet areas and guaranteed mud balls off the fairway.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

One of our swindles has a rule that you can only go in to kitty if you sign up for a GP score before going out.
It has helped to cut the legs off a couple of the bandits who would never put one in.

My usual swindle simply applies a cut to a winners HI towards achieving the same objective. The cut is based upon the amount of £s won. So for example a small win, say of £8, results in a swindle HI cut of 0.8 - not too swingeing, a win of £18 would see a cut of 1.8. Much more significant.

Any bandits soon find their swindle playing handicap cut significantly lower than their WHS playing handicap, and for as long as they keep winning £s, their swindle HI keeps getting cut.

 

[Teebs]

We had a PCC of +1 on Saturday, it’s the first time I’ve ever seen an adjustment at our place. I only noticed since England Golf had my 78 as a counting score and knocking an older 77 out of the scoring.

We had 3 guys under par, 2 on par and another 2 at the course rating, so 7 out of 108 played to the course rating.

The winner was a 24 handicapper who had a 64 (-7.1 on course rating) with a 10 and a 7 on the scorecard. Round of his life I guess considering he was only +10 for 16 of the holes with the course playing long with all the wet areas and guaranteed mud balls off the fairway.

Ours was played on a combination of 18 holes (we have 3 x 9) that is not played very often. It's actually shorter than the other 2 x 9 holes but much tighter and easier to rack up a big score in medal play.

It was so wet (and cold) though. One of the holes has a 185 carry over a pond, I hit my 4 wood and only carried it by 15 yards - usual carry and roll would be 30 yards past that (and it was struck perfectly).

 

[Tashyboy]

That "outs" the blighters! Excellent idea.

I have a good pal who I don’t play with at our place. He regularly shoots 40 odd points. But he never puts a card in and don’t play in comps. His mate who he plays with does the same. I don’t think there “ handicaps “ have changed in a couple of years. They play for coffees between themselves. It works for them.

 

[IanM]

I have a good pal who I don’t play with at our place. He regularly shoots 40 odd points. But he never puts a card in and don’t play in comps. His mate who he plays with does the same. I don’t think there “ handicaps “ have changed in a couple of years. They play for coffees between themselves. It works for them.

I think I said before, I know a group who just play amongst themselves. No cards ever go in. They are having fun and not affecting anything or anyone. So be it.

 

[clubchamp98]

I have a good pal who I don’t play with at our place. He regularly shoots 40 odd points. But he never puts a card in and don’t play in comps. His mate who he plays with does the same. I don’t think there “ handicaps “ have changed in a couple of years. They play for coffees between themselves. It works for them.

Yes we have lots of little fourballs like this, it suits them that’s fine.
Its only when money is involved the bandits come out.

 

[Genu9]

One of our swindles has a rule that you can only go in to kitty if you sign up for a GP score before going out.
It has helped to cut the legs off a couple of the bandits who would never put one in.

Our Swindle is simple, if you keep winning some bugger (Me), cuts your handicap for playing in the Swindle. Inversely if you don't win you get shots.

 

[tobybarker]

someone kill off this thread..... circles.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

someone kill off this thread..... circles.

So why come in and read it then

 

[Backsticks]

Lots of anecdotal evidence that players under 16 are not winning comps.
Ok, the ground conditions have favoured the shorter hitters, but really!!!
It seems to me, once a handicap exceeds 18 anyone lower than that will struggle to compete.

Apart from the usual suspects who i'm sure are maintaining a high handicap which sadly exist at all clubs, it's quite incredible.
As policing handicaps on an individual basis is impossible, I think the only answer is to split every comp into handicap divisions & split the prize pot accordingly.