WHS doesn't work

[Swango1980]

Well as EG are saying that players with more than 4 GP scores on their records and where the GP vs Competition rounds show more than a 2 shot average difference cannot enter their elite tournaments - then they clearly think there is a difference in GP reflecting true golfing ability in competition.
Either that or they are tacitly accusing players with such records of ‘manipulating’ their handicaps.

I suspect the latter is the reality.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just checked the latest Thursday Rollup (played off forward tees and generally mostly higher handicappers and so susceptible to very high pts scoring if dodgy handicaps about). For the Winter month this was usually being won with 43+ pts...less so these days.

28 members played. Was won by a 9 capper with 40pts; 6 players scored >36pts. Average pts scored was 32pts. That seems to reflect a WHS working pretty well.

 

[D-S]

Pros are playing for their job (and a lot of money) and a place in history for the biggest tournaments.

I do feel the butterflies if I’m on to shoot my best score. But that’s excitement more than nerves. I enjoy the competitive nature of match play.

I just don’t get why some people soil themselves playing in a weekly club comp. It genuinely baffles me why some elevate a comp for a few quid of shop credit to such a level they fall apart. Especially when you have a no control over the outcome l. You can have the best round of your life and still not win. And that’s before you consider how many of those you are competing against are probably playing to a completely different set of rules to you.
It’s just not worth getting worked in a tizz about.

That’s my opinion, fine if it’s not yours.

It is not my personal experience but it is an often quoted by many that they ‘go to pieces‘ in comps and their records suggest that whatever your personal experience is, it is definitely true for some. Just telling them it is just another round patently doesn’t help and the internal pressure created is indeEd true for them.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Thank you. I agree with all of what you say.

So the solution to make PCC work (better) might include:
Publish the formula so to create transparency.

Separate calculations for:
Genders
Tees
Competition v Casuals
Members v Visitors

If they don't hit the criteria for the group (e.g. 8 players, HI 36 or better, Fully Developed scoring record) then it's a zero.

However desirable, I genuinely fail to see how the data can be separated for am/pm scores given the vagaries of the signing-in and score submission processes.

Why stop there? Old people, young people? Or maybe old and young people further divided by the style of their naughty bits?

 

[clubchamp98]

Depends on the comp.

See post 2039..
imo there is a difference.

 

[clubchamp98]

Pressure is just subjective.

Does that mean PCC should apply to the Club Champs but not the mid week Stableford? Does it depend on who we are talking about? One of the clubs best players may be under huge pressure in the Club Champs (or anyone competing for the Club Champs nett prize if applicable), whereas they'll have no concerns at all about a midweek Stableford, where you can just arrange to go out in your own groups

Yes it is .
Thats what I am saying!
Even if that pressure is in your own head “ it’s still there”

 

[clubchamp98]

That's about matchplay vs strokeplay? Did you get the right post number?

#2092 my apologies.

 

[clubchamp98]

Only if that pressure comes from within. Competitions at clubs are effectively worth diddly squat and people big them up to be big. They aren't...they are just another round of golf.
It always made me chuckle when, for club champs, people would turn up an hour beforehand and have a full practice, which is completely different to their normal routine. You aren't going to find 'it' in that little bit of extra time.

They are all just a round of golf, writing 18 pretty random numbers down on a piece of paper.

Your entitled to your opinion .
But not everyone is like you including me.

 

[clubchamp98]

Pressure is just subjective.

Does that mean PCC should apply to the Club Champs but not the mid week Stableford? Does it depend on who we are talking about? One of the clubs best players may be under huge pressure in the Club Champs (or anyone competing for the Club Champs nett prize if applicable), whereas they'll have no concerns at all about a midweek Stableford, where you can just arrange to go out in your own groups

I clearly said comps.!
All comps have pressure some more than others.

 

[clubchamp98]

This is all true.

But, in relation to handicaps, how do we account for pressure?

Perhaps the Score Differential will include the players heart rate (against their average heart rate) in the future. Then each competition will have a "pressure rating", which has an impact on the players course handicap.

Brainstorming here

Ask Rory what his BPM is at the Masters next year!

 

[Swango1980]

I clearly said comps.!
All comps have pressure some more than others.

Nope, not all comps have pressure at all. As I said, many players playing in the mid week Stableford will have zero pressure. Yet, they may feel a bit of pressure playing against a mate in general play, if loser buys the drinks.

 

[D-S]

Nope, not all comps have pressure at all. As I said, many players playing in the mid week Stableford will have zero pressure. Yet, they may feel a bit of pressure playing against a mate in general play, if loser buys the drinks.

Pressure comes from internal expectations, so you cannot say this has pressure but something else does not.
Some people can waltz round the course with no idea about how well they are scoring and win comfortably, others are conscious about the effect of every shot which induces pressure on each swing.
It is, perhaps cruelly, said of some players that they are not aware/bright/conscious enough of the magnitude the situation they are in, so that they can thrive ‘under pressure’ because they are not clever enough to realise that they are under it.

 

[Backsticks]

It always made me chuckle when, for club champs, people would turn up an hour beforehand and have a full practice, which is completely different to their normal routine. You aren't going to find 'it' in that little bit of extra time.

Agree.

That hour is much better spent washing your grips, choosing the right tees to bring (and which ones are on the starting team in your pocket, and which are on the reserve bench in the bag), cleaning the dirt, blades of dead grass, and chocolate wrappers out of you ball pocket, folding the waterproofs neatly, putting a bit of polish on the shoes (in fairness, they havnt got any since last years championship), and cleaning the grooves (even the high ones) on your irons so that you can see the paint in them again (not done since last year either tbh).

This is the attention to detail of which Champions are made.

 

[Swango1980]

Pressure comes from internal expectations, so you cannot say this has pressure but something else does not.
Some people can waltz round the course with no idea about how well they are scoring and win comfortably, others are conscious about the effect of every shot which induces pressure on each swing.
It is, perhaps cruelly, said of some players that they are not aware/bright/conscious enough of the magnitude the situation they are in, so that they can thrive ‘under pressure’ because they are not clever enough to realise that they are under it.

I know, I've said this when I said pressure is subjective. I was replying to the statement "all competitions have pressure"

 

[rulefan]

Pressure is all created internally, however this doesn't mean that it can be just put aside.
If someone, for whatever reason takes a competition 'more seriously' they may well create more pressure on themselves.

And some take General Play more seriously because they don't expect to win the comp but they know the GP score is specifically for their handicap status.

 

[D-S]

And some take General Play more seriously because they don't expect to win the comp but they know the GP score is specifically for their handicap status.

I don’t understand this as the GP score and the competition score both have an effect on their handicap status so why should the GP score be taken ‘more seriously’. If they have no expectation of winning the comp the score effectively becomes a GP score so why should it be ‘more serious’.

 

[rulefan]

I don’t understand this as the GP score and the competition score both have an effect on their handicap status so why should the GP score be taken ‘more seriously’ - it doesn’t make sense.

The only reason they are submitting a GP score is for handicapping.

 

[D-S]

The only reason they are submitting a GP score is for handicapping.

If they don’t think they have any chance of winning the comp, the only reason for submitting the score is for handicapping.

 

[Tractor Wheal]

Thanks for the debate everyone.
Like many, many others as a volunteer and having spent a couple of thousand hours on all things competition & handicaps over the last 5 years the theory of WHS intentions and reality of WHS in real life could probably do with some tweaks. I should add that I think England Golf and all the volunteers that did the ratings etc. did a brilliant job especially considering the magnitude of the change.

My club does have a relatively high Slope (132-140) and broadly CR=Par but I am really fed up with seeing poor scores from members on the same day visitors are returning 40+ points. Hence I would like to see PCC calculations split up.
I'll couple this with some numbers from our last AGM. We have about 100 inter-club matches per year. 2021 saw some horrific statistics but WHS was bedding in. An improvement in 2022, we lost 25% of Home matches but only won 8% of Aways. Other Clubs' members coming to ours are largely getting an extra 2-4 on their PH. Conversely our members are typically losing a similar PH amount when going to away matches.
I was initially sceptical but I am now 100% confident that our course was rated correctly to comply with the USGA Course Rating System (tm). Maybe that's where an issue lies?

 

[Alan Clifford]

Thanks for the debate everyone.
Like many, many others as a volunteer and having spent a couple of thousand hours on all things competition & handicaps over the last 5 years the theory of WHS intentions and reality of WHS in real life could probably do with some tweaks. I should add that I think England Golf and all the volunteers that did the ratings etc. did a brilliant job especially considering the magnitude of the change.

My club does have a relatively high Slope (132-140) and broadly CR=Par but I am really fed up with seeing poor scores from members on the same day visitors are returning 40+ points. Hence I would like to see PCC calculations split up.
I'll couple this with some numbers from our last AGM. We have about 100 inter-club matches per year. 2021 saw some horrific statistics but WHS was bedding in. An improvement in 2022, we lost 25% of Home matches but only won 8% of Aways. Other Clubs' members coming to ours are largely getting an extra 2-4 on their PH. Conversely our members are typically losing a similar PH amount when going to away matches.
I was initially sceptical but I am now 100% confident that our course was rated correctly to comply with the USGA Course Rating System (tm). Maybe that's where an issue lies?

I'm a tad confused as to what you are wanting and why?