Which course handicap/adusted gross do I use?

[rulefan]

Not withstanding 4.1a, IMO all scores should be returned as 'hole-by-hole' scores.

I can't find the EG's mandate at the moment - a link would be appreciated.

 

[D-S]

I think we can all agree that the WHS "framework" has been implemented differently around the world and there is not a single means of calculating a handicap index.

When I have updated EG members playing records with overseas scores this has been done using the EG implementation of WHS. This has usually been done via hole-by-hole manual entry.

If the player takes his EG scores back to another country I suspect they will do the reverse and calculate a HI using there country's implementation and it may (or may not) generate a slightly different HI.

This provides a reasonably level playing field for playing in competitions in both countries. Trying to harmonise things that are not designed to be exact will only lead to frustration. Life is too short.

Or CONGU could simply adopt CR-Par as part of the CH calculation thereby bringing them in line with every other country in WHS? This would solve this immediately.

 

[Alan Clifford]

I agree with the replies.
However the interesting point for me is that, given the ways that the adjusted gross might have been calculated by the player according to the way the overseas CH is calculated, perhaps we should be insisting the hole by hole score is sent in to be uploaded to the WHS portal and not simply the adjusted gross total (especially if this has been calculated by the player).

That's not how it's done apparently.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Am I right in thinking that the difference of one stroke in a round caused by the different CH calculation would at worst result in a 0.125 difference in HI for each hole that was affected by the different calculation?

If that is the case it doesn’t seem worth all the aggravation caused by the player in this case.

No agravation. I just asked the question in this forum. No more, no less.

 

[rulefan]

That's not how it's done apparently.

Where is it specified 'that's how it's done' ?
The manual certainly 'strongly recommends it'. ie hole by hole

Is there any reason why your English club can't enter 'hole by hole scores', given that is the way you played it?

 

[D-S]

EG has explained why their method has benefits over the CR-Par method.

As I understand they haven’t ruled it out as a future change though.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Where is it specified 'that's how it's done' ?
The manual certainly 'strongly recommends it'. ie hole by hole

I'd be realy interested in that. Can you point me to the section in the, I assume, WHS rules of handicapping manual, about the recommended way to enter scores from another jurisdiction.

Is there any reason why your English club can't enter 'hole by hole scores', given that is the way you played it?

Apparently not. I'd like it done that way to be honest. I like to point the bloke who does it to the documentation mentioned above about entering foreign scores

 

[WGCRider]

I'm a member of a club in South Africa and in the UK. I just submit for the country I'm in. But I also have spreadsheet that I track every round - including 3rd country and non qualifying scores. As a pointless observation my South African HI is almost always lower than my UK one and generally closer to my own calculated one.

I'd also observe that the slope ratings in the UK are more generous than outside the UK. Loads of courses with ratings of 128+. Outside of England I rarely play courses rated above 125.

 

[Alan Clifford]

HNA went full WHS about a year before EG so I have a second handicap. But I want to do the home club thing so all scores go into England Golf. Unfortunately, HNA don't accept 9 hole foreign scores and I've been playing a lot of 9 holers recently. That being said, my EG calculated handicap is 25.6 whilst that for HNA is 25.7, albeit with different caps because of different low handicap indexes.

I also keep a spreadsheet using the USA method of dealing with 9 holers to see what my handicap would be under that method, that is, adding two 9 holers together. That calculated handicap index would be 28.1. I know you can't generalize from one set of data but that is quite a big difference.

The is also a bit of a perception problem. My wife played with the ladies and told them that her EG handicap was slightly lower than her HNA handicap. The response was essentially, "We can't be bothered with that". Anyway, she did the right thing by telling them.

Regarding the courses, my English club is on chalk with thin grass on the fairways. In South Africa, the course is longer and the rough, whilst being shorter and less "rough" than in England, is kikuyu grass and seems to grip both the ball and club a lot more. Velcro grass or GPS they call it.

 

[rulefan]

What version of the manual does the HNA use? Does it specifically exclude overseas 9 hole scores?

I now see that Clause 4 of the GolfSRA regulations says
4. Foreign Rounds All foreign rounds played in an authorised format, as per rule 2.1 in the WHS Rules of Handicapping, on a course with an official WHS Course and Slope Rating, must be entered on the HNA system.
WHS Rules 2.1a and 2.2 include 9 hole scores.

Incidentally, Rule 6.1a suggests it is the US version of the WHS manual.

 

[rulefan]

Unfortunately, HNA don't accept 9 hole foreign scores and I've been playing a lot of 9 holers recently. That being said, my EG calculated handicap is 25.6 whilst that for HNA is 25.7, albeit with different caps because of different low handicap indexes.

I also keep a spreadsheet using the USA method of dealing with 9 holers to see what my handicap would be under that method, that is, adding two 9 holers together. That calculated handicap index would be 28.1. I know you can't generalize from one set of data but that is quite a big difference.

HNA says
10.2) How are nine-hole scores applied to the Handicap Index® calculation?
The 9-hole calculation will automatically be completed by the system by first converting your nine-hole score into an 18-hole score (by taking your Adjusted Gross Score for the nine holes you played, adding par for that nine, plus your handicap strokes for that nine, plus 1 additional stroke) before converting it into a differential using the Course®- and Slope Ratings® of the nine you played.

Which is the way everywhere outside the USGA area works

 

[D-S]

HNA says
10.2) How are nine-hole scores applied to the Handicap Index® calculation?
The 9-hole calculation will automatically be completed by the system by first converting your nine-hole score into an 18-hole score (by taking your Adjusted Gross Score for the nine holes you played, adding par for that nine, plus your handicap strokes for that nine, plus 1 additional stroke) before converting it into a differential using the Course®- and Slope Ratings® of the nine you played.

Which is the way everywhere outside the USGA area works

Out of interest how does the USGA handle 9 hole scores?

 

[wjemather]

Out of interest how does the USGA handle 9 hole scores?

9-hole scores are combined with other 9-hole scores to create 18-hole score differentials. If no other 9-hole score is submitted within the next 20 scores, the 9-hole score is never used.

There are a small number of other jurisdictions, e.g. Argentina and Brazil, that also combine 9-hole scores rather than scale-up.

 

[wjemather]

I'm a member of a club in South Africa and in the UK. I just submit for the country I'm in. But I also have spreadsheet that I track every round - including 3rd country and non qualifying scores. As a pointless observation my South African HI is almost always lower than my UK one and generally closer to my own calculated one.

Either your scores should be posted to both handicap records as soon as possible, or you should be taking your current handicap record with you every time you move between jurisdictions in order for the relevant handicap committee to update the local record - the guidance is quite clear on this. You shouldn't have 2 distinct (independent) handicaps.

 

[wjemather]

Which course handicap/adusted gross do I use?

EG handicap index: 23.8
par: 72
course rating: 69.6
slope rating: 124
course handicap, HNA (Handicaps Network Africa) method = 23.8 x 124/113 + 69.6 - 72 = 24 rounded.
course handicap, EG (England Golf) method = 23.8 X 124/113 = 26 rounded

Those figures give me 2 shots on 6 holes (HNA method) or 2 shots on 8 holes (EG method)

If I play in a competition at my club in South Africa, I need to use my EG index with the HNA course handicap calculation. When I return the card to my club in England, I need to return the adjusted gross.

If I have a bit of a meltdown on hole index 8, which is a par 4, and score 8, it's a net triple bogey under the HNA method but a net double bogey under the EG method. This affects the adjusted gross.

Now, the question is, do I return the adjusted gross as written on the card or do I recalculate using the EG course handicap method which would be one shot more? It is a rare occurance but I like to do thinks properly.

I have never been able to find any offical guidance in either the HNA WHS rules of handicapping or in the EG WHS rules of handicapping. I have been using one of these methods in the past but I don't really know if I made the correct decision.

It sounds like this most applies to your situation:

CONGU guidance G1.4b/3 - "(the player) should take with them a copy of the last 20 scores supporting their Handicap Index. The foreign jurisdiction will take this and set up the handicap record locally. Typically in these situations the player is a member of an overseas club in that jurisdiction and plays competitively whilst resident there. At the end of the period away, the player should take a copy of their record whilst residing abroad to allow these scores to be input at their home club and thus adjust their handicap accordingly on the home system."

The standard handicap record report only contains adjusted gross scores (along with the usual course information, PCCs, score differentials, etc.); inputting scores this way ensures the score differentials and resultant Handicap Index are the same in both jurisdictions.

Otherwise... when a player is simply playing abroad (e.g. on holiday) and there is no second handicap record to maintain, hole-by-hole scores would normally be entered and the rules of the local their home (edited for clarity) jurisdiction would apply with respect to Course Handicaps and resultant adjusted gross scores.

 

[rulefan]

It sounds like this most applies to your situation:
CONGU guidance G1.4b/3 -

Thanks for posting that. I seem to have 'misbookmarked' the link to the guide and still can't find it.

Edit: Got it now. It seems to have moved from the CONGU site to EG

 

[Alan Clifford]

What version of the manual does the HNA use? Does it specifically exclude overseas 9 hole scores?

I now see that Clause 4 of the GolfSRA regulations says
4. Foreign Rounds All foreign rounds played in an authorised format, as per rule 2.1 in the WHS Rules of Handicapping, on a course with an official WHS Course and Slope Rating, must be entered on the HNA system.
WHS Rules 2.1a and 2.2 include 9 hole scores.

Incidentally, Rule 6.1a suggests it is the US version of the WHS manual.

They have there own version
https://www.handicaps.co.za/handicaps-info/rules-of-handicapping/

They scale up 9 hole scores.

I have been specifically told by HNA that there are not plans to include foreign 9 hole scores. I shall email them and ask again with the quote from the regulations.

 

[Alan Clifford]

It sounds like this most applies to your situation:

CONGU guidance G1.4b/3 - "(the player) should take with them a copy of the last 20 scores supporting their Handicap Index. The foreign jurisdiction will take this and set up the handicap record locally. Typically in these situations the player is a member of an overseas club in that jurisdiction and plays competitively whilst resident there. At the end of the period away, the player should take a copy of their record whilst residing abroad to allow these scores to be input at their home club and thus adjust their handicap accordingly on the home system."

The standard handicap record report only contains adjusted gross scores (along with the usual course information, PCCs, score differentials, etc.); inputting scores this way ensures the score differentials and resultant Handicap Index are the same in both jurisdictions.

Otherwise... when a player is simply playing abroad (e.g. on holiday) and there is no second handicap record to maintain, hole-by-hole scores would normally be entered and the rules of the local jurisdiction would apply with respect to Course Handicaps and resultant adjusted gross scores.

"whilst resident there." I'm on holiday. We really only join the club because it is financially advantageous to do so.

" the rules of the local jurisdiction would apply with respect to Course Handicaps and resultant adjusted gross scores". That could be the answer to the question. I'll have a look in the Congu Guidance.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Rule 1.4b3 of the rules of handicapping "Where a player is a member of a golf club located in a different jurisdiction from the location of their home club, the player may be required to hold a separate Handicap Index issued by the Authorized Association responsible for handicapping within the different jurisdiction."

I once did ask about this and HNA said that I should keep my HNA handicap as they were worried about the English system of not submitting every score. Without looking up the relevant email, the words used were something like "I didn't realize it was as bad as that".

 

[wjemather]

"whilst resident there." I'm on holiday. We really only join the club because it is financially advantageous to do so.

You are effectively resident there.

Rule 1.4b3 of the rules of handicapping "Where a player is a member of a golf club located in a different jurisdiction from the location of their home club, the player may be required to hold a separate Handicap Index issued by the Authorized Association responsible for handicapping within the different jurisdiction."

I once did ask about this and HNA said that I should keep my HNA handicap as they were worried about the English system of not submitting every score. Without looking up the relevant email, the words used were something like "I didn't realize it was as bad as that".

Players can hold a handicap in multiple jurisdictions but these handicaps should not be distinct, i.e. they should not be based on a completely different set of scores and the player must ensure they are up to date when they move around (following the above process) so that they are never using an incorrect handicap.