Which course handicap/adusted gross do I use?

[Alan Clifford]

Which course handicap/adusted gross do I use?

EG handicap index: 23.8
par: 72
course rating: 69.6
slope rating: 124
course handicap, HNA (Handicaps Network Africa) method = 23.8 x 124/113 + 69.6 - 72 = 24 rounded.
course handicap, EG (England Golf) method = 23.8 X 124/113 = 26 rounded

Those figures give me 2 shots on 6 holes (HNA method) or 2 shots on 8 holes (EG method)

If I play in a competition at my club in South Africa, I need to use my EG index with the HNA course handicap calculation. When I return the card to my club in England, I need to return the adjusted gross.

If I have a bit of a meltdown on hole index 8, which is a par 4, and score 8, it's a net triple bogey under the HNA method but a net double bogey under the EG method. This affects the adjusted gross.

Now, the question is, do I return the adjusted gross as written on the card or do I recalculate using the EG course handicap method which would be one shot more? It is a rare occurance but I like to do thinks properly.

I have never been able to find any offical guidance in either the HNA WHS rules of handicapping or in the EG WHS rules of handicapping. I have been using one of these methods in the past but I don't really know if I made the correct decision.

 

[rulie]

It would seem logical that if you are reporting the score to EG for hdcp purposes, the “ adjusted gross” would be based on the EG course handicap. (However, there are several things in each nation’s application of the WORLD Handicap System which appear illogical.)

 

[Alan Clifford]

It says in this forum's description, "... GM's in house rules experts are here to help." Any one know the actual rule for this and can provide a reference?

 

[Deleted member 15717]

whs.support@englandgolf.org

 

[Alan Clifford]

whs.support@englandgolf.org

Never had any luck with England Golf with any query. For one query, they put a lot of effort into telling me that it was not that they didn't know the answer but that I should go through the proper channels, i.e. my club. So I did that, they hadn't a clue and passed the query onto the county. At that point, it disappeared into the ether, never to be mentioned again. EG even blocked me on twitter at one point. Really, really unhelpful people.

 

[D-S]

As South Africa, along with the rest of the world with the exception of CONGU countries, use CR-Par in Course Handicap calculation, this should be a potential issue for all scores returned from abroad (i.e. non CONGU countries) if the score is returned as a simple Adjusted Gross Score and not on a hole by hole basis.
If this is correct, excuse me if I am wrong, this is quite a large potential problem and, as such, I am surprised by the EG silence.

 

[Alan Clifford]

As South Africa, along with the rest of the world with the exception of CONGU countries, use CR-Par in Course Handicap calculation, this should be a potential issue for all scores returned from abroad (i.e. non CONGU countries) if the score is returned as a simple Adjusted Gross Score and not on a hole by hole basis.
If this is correct, excuse me if I am wrong, this is quite a large potential problem and, as such, I am surprised by the EG silence.

Don't know if I've asked this particular question to EG - they put me off asking questions.

We submit adjusted gross. Attachment shows what it looks like on EG.

I also send the card. My view has alway been that if someone starts from the card scores to check, they're going to use an EG style calculator so that's what I've done in my submissions. Don't know if that is the correct proceedure.

 

[D-S]

Don't know if I've asked this particular question to EG - they put me off asking questions.

I am surprised that they have not simply said just give the score hole by hole to your UK golf Club and the software will automatically calculate the Adjusted Gross correctly. In reality this is something that the computer does for you and it should be picked up in the SA software and the UK software and adjusted accordingly. Obviously it is key to have hole by hole scores.

 

[Alan Clifford]

I am surprised that they have not simply said just give the score hole by hole to your UK golf Club and the software will automatically calculate the Adjusted Gross correctly. In reality this is something that the computer does for you and it should be picked up in the SA software and the UK software and adjusted accordingly. Obviously it is key to have hole by hole scores.

I edited my reply with more information. I do send my card but it isn't used apparently.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Been looking up dealings with England Golf WHS department regarding another query to illustrate why I won't get an answer from them.

Dear Alan
Many thanks for getting in touch.
Although happy to assist, a query such as this should be supported by your club handicap
committee as the first contact point, so can I refer you to them (as per the graphic below).
If your club committee need further support, they in turn would contact your County advisor.
Kindest regards.

Hi Alan,

In reply -

This is not about not knowing the answer, to this and many other queries. There is a
communication process to follow regarding queries such your' s.

Kindest regards

 

[Colin L]

Isn't the home club responsible for maintaining members' handicaps in England? You are scornful of your handicap committee's not having a clue; you complain of the County Advisor's silence; and you dismiss EG as comprising "really, really unhelpful people" when they refer you to the established procedures. That would be the same EG that had some reason for blocking your Twitter account?

I don't imagine for a moment that the procedure for returning a score from outwith England is that the individual sends a card in to EG. If you feel your handicap committee is unable to handle what I suspect it should be handling, perhaps instead of griping, you could volunteer to help your fellow members on that committee? You could become the go-to expert on handling away scores.

I plead the intolerance of old age for this early morning grumpiness, but I do wonder what the real source of the problem might be.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

So reading that, and reading that you were also blocked in twitter by them…maybe you need to look at yourself and your responses?

chase your handicap secretary if they haven’t got a response.

 

[rulefan]

Never had any luck with England Golf with any query. For one query, they put a lot of effort into telling me that it was not that they didn't know the answer but that I should go through the proper channels, i.e. my club. So I did that, they hadn't a clue and passed the query onto the county. At that point, it disappeared into the ether, never to be mentioned again. EG even blocked me on twitter at one point. Really, really unhelpful people.

Have you or your club chased the county secretary or county advisor? If not why not?

 

[Alan Clifford]

Isn't the home club responsible for maintaining members' handicaps in England? You are scornful of your handicap committee's not having a clue; you complain of the County Advisor's silence; and you dismiss EG as comprising "really, really unhelpful people" when they refer you to the established procedures. That would be the same EG that had some reason for blocking your Twitter account?

I don't imagine for a moment that the procedure for returning a score from outwith England is that the individual sends a card in to EG. If you feel your handicap committee is unable to handle what I suspect it should be handling, perhaps instead of griping, you could volunteer to help your fellow members on that committee? You could become the go-to expert on handling away scores.

I plead the intolerance of old age for this early morning grumpiness, but I do wonder what the real source of the problem might be.

None of that makes sense. There has never been any question of sending a foreign card to England Golf! Not scornful of the handicap committee, just stating fact.

The first post details the problem!!!

 

[Bratty]

You say one query you raised with the county and heard nothing back. That's not EG's fault, and although you shouldn't have to, chase the County for an answer until you get one.
As to the original question, just put in the one you think is "correct" (which for me would be using EG adjustment as you're putting it against your EG handicap). Then it's up to your committe, county committee or EG to correct you.
The worst that can happen is they remove the score from your record.

 

[Old Skier]

Never had any luck with England Golf with any query. For one query, they put a lot of effort into telling me that it was not that they didn't know the answer but that I should go through the proper channels, i.e. my club. So I did that, they hadn't a clue and passed the query onto the county. At that point, it disappeared into the ether, never to be mentioned again. EG even blocked me on twitter at one point. Really, really unhelpful people.

That’s because there is a reason. Queries should go through , club, county HC rep, area rep and if they don’t have the answer it will be passed to EG.

 

[Old Skier]

Your handicap Secretary can also input some if not all international courses via the WHS app. I have done it for our members on French, Spanish and Portuguese courses.

 

[D-S]

I agree with the replies.
However the interesting point for me is that, given the ways that the adjusted gross might have been calculated by the player according to the way the overseas CH is calculated, perhaps we should be insisting the hole by hole score is sent in to be uploaded to the WHS portal and not simply the adjusted gross total (especially if this has been calculated by the player).

 

[mikejohnchapman]

I agree with the replies.
However the interesting point for me is that, given the ways that the adjusted gross might have been calculated by the player according to the way the overseas CH is calculated, perhaps we should be insisting the hole by hole score is sent in to be uploaded to the WHS portal and not simply the adjusted gross total (especially if this has been calculated by the player).

I think we can all agree that the WHS "framework" has been implemented differently around the world and there is not a single means of calculating a handicap index.

When I have updated EG members playing records with overseas scores this has been done using the EG implementation of WHS. This has usually been done via hole-by-hole manual entry.

If the player takes his EG scores back to another country I suspect they will do the reverse and calculate a HI using there country's implementation and it may (or may not) generate a slightly different HI.

This provides a reasonably level playing field for playing in competitions in both countries. Trying to harmonise things that are not designed to be exact will only lead to frustration. Life is too short.

 

[DickInShorts]

Am I right in thinking that the difference of one stroke in a round caused by the different CH calculation would at worst result in a 0.125 difference in HI for each hole that was affected by the different calculation?

If that is the case it doesn’t seem worth all the aggravation caused by the player in this case.