When is a ball unplayable - definition - spirit of the game?

[Cobbslane]

I know that it is up to the player himself to declare a ball as unplayable anywhere in general area etc but is there a definition of unplayable that should apply? Let me explain my concern...

I have never experienced it myself but I have been told that there are a number of members who automatically take stroke and distance relief when they enter a bunker from a distance without inspecting the lie to determine whether it is truly 'unplayable' even when it lies perfectly within the bunker. Out comes the second ball for a single shot penalty, the first being picked out of the bunker as they pass. This is used most frequently on the most difficult bunkers so they never get that 3 or 4 shot exit that some of us occasionally suffer!

Those of us who have served a 'proper apprenticeship' would naturally examine the lie and if ok would take our shot (or shots!) and medicine and learn from the experience. The score would record this and up would go the handicap if it was a particularly severe trap. Fair enough.

But I suspect that they are confusing 'unplayable' as in impossible lie, embedded, tucked under fringe etc etc with 'unplayable' as in 'I lack the skill to hit from a bunker' resulting in them getting a potentially significant scoring benefit and perhaps even a win.

Personally I do not believe that their approach is within the spirit of the game of golf. (After all, if it is then why bother to have bunkers at all - just mark a shape on the fairway and if you land in it take a 1 shot stroke and distance penalty and move on! It would save a fortune for golf clubs in bunker creation and maintenance!)

I detest it but it happens apparently and the handicap police appear to accept it but what do you think?

 

[cliveb]

My views on this:

1. They are thinking about their game and choosing the best option for them. This is just another form of course management.
2a. By taking S&D immediately (instead going up to the ball, inspecting it, then returning to play another under S&D), they are speeding up play.
2b. By taking S&D instead of 4 shots to get out of the bunker, they are speeding up play.

I applaud their decision to take S&D. More choppers would do well to remember it's an option.

 

[Cobbslane]

So let me be devil's advocate then. By extension to your argument which I fully understand should we do away with bunkers to speed up the pace of the game even more?
BTW you are assuming they are 'choppers' - many of them aren't.

 

[Imurg]

If the Rules say you can declare a ball unplayable effectively anywhere, how can it be against the Spirit of the Game..?
Don't forget, by taking S&D the player has to have another go and could just as easily put themselves in a worse place than the bunker - or even back in the bunker.
It's been discussed on here before that if you putt into a bunker you can simply take S&D and replay with a penalty rather than try to extract yourself from, possibly, a difficult bunker.

Oh, and welcome..

 

[robinthehood]

No issue with it here. My only question would it not be a 2 shot pen now seeing as it's dropping out the bunker rather than in it? Or is it 1 as you are taking s&d

 

[Cobbslane]

No issue with it here. My only question would it not be a 2 shot pen now seeing as it's dropping out the bunker rather than in it? Or is it 1 as you are taking s&d

Personally I would rather it be a 2 shot penalty rather than one. That way it would better represent the advantage gained. (it is stroke and distance hence one shot penalty btw. To be played from same spot as first ball.)

Only a few replies so far, thank you..... but all in favour which is interesting. Maybe I should change my ways!

Is there an 'R&A' definition for unplayable btw? That could help the argument either way. I have asked them but no reply as yet.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Out comes the second ball for a single shot penalty, the first being picked out of the bunker as they pass. T

Are they allowed to substitute another ball in play as it's not a lost ball. Surely they have to complete the hole with the original

 

[Cobbslane]

Are they allowed to substitute another ball in play as it's not a lost ball. Surely they have to complete the hole with the original

That is a fair and important interesting point. Need a heads up on that one

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No issue. So for instance, if I putt off a green and I don't fancy the shot back - be it out of a bunker or anything - even from the middle of the fairway with a perfect lie - then S&D is always an option for me.

If I putt off the green into a greenside bunker then I might well just put it back on the green for a one shot penalty and I have another go at the same putt. I better know the line and better know the weight. You know it makes sense.

That said I have never come across a player taking S&D in quite the way as you have posted.

But OK. If that's what they want to do. They remove the possibility of holing out from the bunker and risk taking four (three plus the penalty) to get down from a greenside bunker position, when down in two was possible, down in three always hoped for.

 

[Imurg]

That is a fair and important interesting point. Need a heads up on that one

I suspect the rule states "a" ball rather than "the" ball.
If you hit OB or carve it miles into the jungle you're effectively taking S&D but not using the same ball.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Sul

Are they allowed to substitute another ball in play as it's not a lost ball. Surely they have to complete the hole with the original

You can put a new ball in play at any time by simply not declaring it a provisional. In effect that's all a player hitting into a bunker and not fancying a bunker shot and then taking S&D is doing. Just putting a new ball into play - and the stroke count is just the same.

 

[cliveb]

So let me be devil's advocate then. By extension to your argument which I fully understand should we do away with bunkers to speed up the pace of the game even more?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I merely observed that if a player knows they are hopeless out of bunkers, then taking S&D is a valid option that might save time as well as strokes.

BTW you are assuming they are 'choppers' - many of them aren't.

Fair point - anyone might be intimidated by a sufficiently scary bunker.

 

[Cobbslane]

Sul


You can put a new ball in play at any time by simply not declaring it a provisional. In effect that's all a player hitting into a bunker and not fancying a bunker shot and then taking S&D is doing. Just putting a new ball into play.

Thanks for that. Rule 6.3b says:
b
Substitution of Another Ball While Playing Hole
(1) When Player Is Allowed and Not Allowed to Substitute Another Ball. Certain Rules allow a player to change the ball he or she is using to play a hole by substituting another ball as the ball in play, and others do not:

• When taking relief under a Rule, including when either dropping a ball or placing a ball (such as when a ball will not stay in the relief area or when taking relief on the putting green), the player may use either the original ball or another ball (Rule 14.3a),
• When playing again from where a previous stroke was made, the player may use either the original ball or another ball (Rule 14.6), and
• When replacing a ball on a spot, the player is not allowed to substitute a ball and must use the original ball, with certain exceptions (Rule 14.2a).

 

[Cobbslane]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I merely observed that if a player knows they are hopeless out of bunkers, then taking S&D is a valid option that might save time as well as strokes.

Fair point - anyone might be intimidated by a sufficiently scary bunker.

Ok fair point....I was being devil's advocate!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I am two feet past and above the hole on a raised and very fast green - with the hole situated at the very front of the green on a slope with rapid drop off past the hole then down a steep slope to fairway level - some 10ft or so below green level.

I slightly misread the putt and it ends up at the bottom of the slope sitting perfectly on close-mown fairway with nothing between my ball and the flag other than a slope. I have a pitch shot back up. If I try and be too cute with my pitch and try keep the ball below the hole - I risk leaving it too short and it ends up back at my feet and with the same problem. If I play long to avoid the risk of that I then have a difficult fast downhill putt - with high risk of being back at bottom of the slope. Aaargh!

And so what do I do. I might well choose to take S&D and put the ball back on the green. I know the line and weight of the putt. I now have a good chance of holing it. So from bottom of the slope I am down in three. I might well take that from my position at the bottom of the slope.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Thanks for that. Rule 6.3b says:
b
Substitution of Another Ball While Playing Hole
(1) When Player Is Allowed and Not Allowed to Substitute Another Ball. Certain Rules allow a player to change the ball he or she is using to play a hole by substituting another ball as the ball in play, and others do not:

• When taking relief under a Rule, including when either dropping a ball or placing a ball (such as when a ball will not stay in the relief area or when taking relief on the putting green), the player may use either the original ball or another ball (Rule 14.3a),
• When playing again from where a previous stroke was made, the player may use either the original ball or another ball (Rule 14.6), and
• When replacing a ball on a spot, the player is not allowed to substitute a ball and must use the original ball, with certain exceptions (Rule 14.2a).

Just to check - are you suggesting bullet point three applies? In your scenario your playing partners should not be placing a ball on a spot.

What I have pointed out is that, no matter what you playing companions say they are doing in respect of S&D - they are, in essence, simply putting a new ball into play. I will stand corrected by those who know the rules better than I.

 

[Cobbslane]

Just to check - are you suggesting bullet point three applies? In your scenario your playing partners should not be placing a ball on a spot.

What I have pointed out is that, no matter what you playing companions say they are doing in respect of S&D - they are, in essence, simply putting a new ball into play. I will stand corrected by those who know the rules better than I.

No I have highlighted the elements of 6.3b in red that seem to apply here to support your earlier point about ball substitution. In particular bullet pt 2.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No I have highlighted the elements of 6.3b in red that seem to apply here to support your earlier point about ball substitution. In particular bullet pt 2.

Right - wasn't sure...

 

[Cobbslane]

Thanks to all who have responded.
This has introduced me to a whole new area of course management that I had not really considered which is clearly widely used. It's not so much about knowing the rules as about their interpretation and correct application.
My sense of 'spirit of golf' now seems a bit outdated and naive.

 

[Colin L]

Just to check - are you suggesting bullet point three applies? In your scenario your playing partners should not be placing a ball on a spot.

What I have pointed out is that, no matter what you playing companions say they are doing in respect of S&D - they are, in essence, simply putting a new ball into play. I will stand corrected by those who know the rules better than I.

Personally I would rather it be a 2 shot penalty rather than one. That way it would better represent the advantage gained. (it is stroke and distance hence one shot penalty btw. To be played from same spot as first ball.)

Only a few replies so far, thank you..... but all in favour which is interesting. Maybe I should change my ways!

Is there an 'R&A' definition for unplayable btw? That could help the argument either way. I have asked them but no reply as yet.

I think you are forgetting the penal aspect of distance in stroke and distance. Two penalty strokes would be harsh indeed when you are losing the distance gained with your previous shot. Do you think that it should be a 2 stroke penalty and distance if you chose to take S&D when your ball has gone into a penalty area? You might think that the 2 stroke penalty rather than 1 for taking relief outside a bunker back on the line is in recognition of the need to make that penalty roughly the same as S&D.

I expect the R&A will tell you that an unplayable ball is a ball which the player has decided is unplayable or to treat as unplayable.

 

[rosecott]

Personally I would rather it be a 2 shot penalty rather than one. That way it would better represent the advantage gained. (it is stroke and distance hence one shot penalty btw. To be played from same spot as first ball.)

Only a few replies so far, thank you..... but all in favour which is interesting. Maybe I should change my ways!

Is there an 'R&A' definition for unplayable btw? That could help the argument either way. I have asked them but no reply as yet.

I don't think any anyone has answered your last point. No need to ask the R&A - the player is the sole judge of whether his ball is unplayable or not.