When is a ball unplayable - definition - spirit of the game?

[Swango1980]

I think you might be misunderstanding my earliest point.
I have no problem with the application of the penalty stroke and certainly do not think that this is against the spirit of the game. My original point was that to declare a ball lying perfectly on the sand in a bunker without any obstruction to a shot being conventionally made as 'unplayable' seemed to me to go against the spirit of the game. It now seems that I am very very much in the minority with that particular aspect. I was taught that unless the ball in a bunker was properly unable to be played then you would be 'expected' to take a shot, have a go, do your best etc and learn from the experience. Hence the need for the appropriate wedge and lessons in the art of bunker play. I now recognise and accept that this is not current practice and avoiding the horrors of bunker play is quite normal if you wish to do so. As a result I look forward to a reduced handicap which is perhaps also something to which I should no longer aspire. Or am I wrong there too? Perhaps when SKY shows us Rory or Tiger taking stroke and distance to avoid the worst of the pot bunkers at St Andrews I will feel better about it. Sorry for being so conventional.

Regarding the "lying perfectly in the sand. If this was the case, and as has been mentioned by others, the player has automatically ruled himself out of playing this shot and getting out first time. He is very likely adding shots onto his score by taking stroke and relief, and when he does he may very well end up in the bunker again, or some other horrible position. So, I wouldn't consider it being "against the spirit" if, in all likelihood, the player is probably putting himself at a disadvantage.

Regarding "horrors of bunker play", if the player really is horrific out of bunkers then it is absolutely fair to say that, for that particular player, the ball IS unplayable even though it is sitting perfectly in the bunker. Therefore, it is completely justifiable for him to declare it as such. Just in the same way, if a right-handed players ball was next to a bush, where they couldn't take a stance, some players my be capable enough to confidently play it left handed, while others may elect to take unplayable. You take the option that manages your round, and completely within the spirit of the game. Imagine an option where, you've ended up on the wrong fairway, and now there are masses of high trees between you and the green. Some players may be able to go high over the trees, and elect to do so. Others may take unplayable, because there is no way they can go over them, and there would be no easy way through them or around them. It would be against the spirit of the game, in my opinion, to force them to play the shot and take about 18 shots to get through the trees. So, it would also be against the spirit to force a player to play a bunker shot when it may easily take them 10 shots to get out.

 

[Foxholer]

My views on this:

1. They are thinking about their game and choosing the best option for them. This is just another form of course management.
2a. By taking S&D immediately (instead going up to the ball, inspecting it, then returning to play another under S&D), they are speeding up play.
2b. By taking S&D instead of 4 shots to get out of the bunker, they are speeding up play.

I applaud their decision to take S&D. More choppers would do well to remember it's an option.

Absolutely comes down to this!

It's (effectively) a 2 shot penalty, so pretty severe!

One of the fantastic things about Golf (and its Rules) is the concept of 'personal responsibility' and if a player decides his/her best option, then that's totally fine by me! If the player considers S&D his best option, then that's perfectly fine - in Golf as per Life!

Btw. I'm ambivalent about the 'speeding up play' element! To me, that's external pressure that doesn't belong in a golf decision! Though it may well be an 'additional bonus'.

 

[robinthehood]

My friend topped his ball into very thick rough off the tee little more then 10 yards ahead to the left, he was surprised when I said he'd probably be better off taking 3 off the tee than hack out of the rough as he hadn't realised this was an option.

 

[clubchamp98]

My friend topped his ball into very thick rough off the tee little more then 10 yards ahead to the left, he was surprised when I said he'd probably be better off taking 3 off the tee than hack out of the rough as he hadn't realised this was an option.

Rules do help in some circumstances.
Like your mates.
It does pay to know them!
Good job he has got you to help!.

 

[robinthehood]

Rules do help in some circumstances.
Like your mates.
It does pay to know them!
Good job he’s got you to help!

Yeah this rough is so heavy that there is no guarantee you'd even get it out and then your next shot would still be from normal rough.

 

[Foxholer]

My friend topped his ball into very thick rough off the tee little more then 10 yards ahead to the left, he was surprised when I said he'd probably be better off taking 3 off the tee than hack out of the rough as he hadn't realised this was an option.

Rules do help in some circumstances.
Like your mates.
It does pay to know them!
Good job he’s got you to help!

Yeah this rough is so heavy that there is no guarantee you'd even get it out and then your next shot would still be from normal rough.

I trust you applied the appropriate penalty for 'giving advice'!!

 

[robinthehood]

I trust you applied the appropriate penalty for 'giving advice'!!

No but I wrote on a piece of paper how long before foxholer makes a lame post about giving advice

 

[rulie]

I trust you applied the appropriate penalty for 'giving advice'!!

It's not always advice, it depends on how it's phrased. If he said, "you should take unplayable or stroke and distance", that would be advice. If he said, "do you know that you can take an unplayable or stroke and distance:", that is not advice.

 

[Swango1980]

It's not always advice, it depends on how it's phrased. If he said, "you should take unplayable or stroke and distance", that would be advice. If he said, "do you know that you can take an unplayable or stroke and distance:", that is not advice.

True, but the "I said he'd probably be better off taking 3 off the tee" pretty much clarifies it was phrased in such a way that it was advice.

 

[robinthehood]

True, but the "I said he'd probably be better off taking 3 off the tee" pretty much clarifies it was phrased in such a way that it was advice.

100 % it was advice.

 

[Colin L]

.....Regarding "horrors of bunker play", if the player really is horrific out of bunkers then it is absolutely fair to say that, for that particular player, the ball IS unplayable even though it is sitting perfectly in the bunker. Therefore, it is completely justifiable for him to declare it as such. .....

As already said, it isn't necessary to justify deciding to take relief for an "unplayable" ball. The player could be highly skilled at playing from bunkers and decide to do so no matter how favourable a lie he had. Rule 19 allows him decide to treat his ball as unplayable. That's it. Absolutely no requirement that it's impossible/ very difficult to play it.

 

[Foxholer]

100 % it was advice.

So did you apply the 'giving advice' penalty?

If you did, it's an admission that you were simply stupid to have 'given advice'. If not, then, imo, it's a far greater 'crime'!

 

[Swango1980]

As already said, it isn't necessary to justify deciding to take relief for an "unplayable" ball. The player could be highly skilled at playing from bunkers and decide to do so no matter how favourable a lie he had. Rule 19 allows him decide to treat his ball as unplayable. That's it. Absolutely no requirement that it's impossible/ very difficult to play it.

Yeah, I know this. The context of my statement was more related to the OP in which it was thought it was against the spirit of the game, I was explaining why that mindset in itself would be flawed. I think the OP agreed with the rule, or had by the time I commented, he was just questioning that the rule itself could be "abused" to be against the spirit of the game. I fully agree that the ball could be declared unplayable once it is in play regardless of it's lie, and have no issue with this at all.

 

[robinthehood]

So did you apply apply the 'giving advice' penalty?

Yes I did 20 press ups.

 

[Foxholer]

Yes I did 20 press ups.

If that's all you did, then you are 'not a golfer' - and your above reply is likely to almost certainly be twaddle (anyway)!

 

[robinthehood]

If that's all you did, then you are 'not a golfer' - and your above reply is likely to almost certainly be twaddle (anyway)!

Ha ha whatever mate. Keep on trolling.

 

[Foxholer]

Ha ha whatever mate. Keep on trolling.

Ah, that 'old, ridiculous'' argument!

You can 'keep on cheating'!

 

[clubchamp98]

Yes I did 20 press ups.

I assumed it was just a knock about.
You naughty boy , never admit breaking the rules on here.

I do find it a bit silly though.
Depending on how you phrase your sentence is or isn’t advice.
No wonder people don’t understand lots of rules.

 

[robinthehood]

I assumed it was just a knock about.
You naughty boy , never admit breaking the rules on here.

I do find it a bit silly though.
Depending on how you phrase your sentence is or isn’t advice.
No wonder people don’t understand lots of rules.

Yes of course it was .
Yeah the advice thing seems a bit of a minefield.

 

[patricks148]

Yes of course it was .
Yeah the advice thing seems a bit of a minefield.

maybe you should just do what buggerluggs does and just google it