When is a ball unplayable - definition - spirit of the game?

[chrisd]

My sense of 'spirit of golf' now seems a bit outdated and naive.

I get your comment, but guess the fact that it's open to everyone to do the same (if they bother to read the rules) that makes doing this completely equitable

 

[ManinBlack]

(After all, if it is then why bother to have bunkers at all - just mark a shape on the fairway and if you land in it take a 1 shot stroke and distance penalty

Do you really not know the answer to that one? And, I'm sorry, I don't think giving yourself a one stroke penalty, in accordance with the rules, is in any way against the spirit of the game, less so than hitting your provisional down the middle, then deciding not to look for the original.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Thanks to all who have responded.
This has introduced me to a whole new area of course management that I had not really considered which is clearly widely used. It's not so much about knowing the rules as about their interpretation and correct application.
My sense of 'spirit of golf' now seems a bit outdated and naive.

I'd encourage that you don't let this dent your understanding of the 'spirit of the game'. It is simply using the rules as they allow - to your best benefit. Don't worry about how a competitor might see things - unless you are picking him up on a rule break...

Many times we get clobbered by the rules and will think 'that's sooo unfair' - well when I were a wee lad wailing that complaint, an auld fella told me 'golf was never meant to be fair laddie'. So use the rules as best you can - to ameliorate the pain of when they work against you.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But

I think you are forgetting the penal aspect of distance in stroke and distance. Two penalty strokes would be harsh indeed when you are losing the distance gained with your previous shot. Do you think that it should be a 2 stroke penalty and distance if you chose to take S&D when your ball has gone into a penalty area? You might think that the 2 stroke penalty rather than 1 for taking relief outside a bunker back on the line is in recognition of the need to make that penalty roughly the same as S&D.

I expect the R&A will tell you that an unplayable ball is a ball which the player has decided is unplayable or to treat as unplayable.

Just to check - taking S&D as here is equivalent to putting a new ball in play from the original position. Or have I got it wrong?

1) Hit ball into greenside bunker = 1; penalty stroke and distance back to point shot played from +1 = 2; play shot to green (or back into bunker) +1 = 3
2) Hit ball into greenside bunker = 1; drop ball at point shot played from and declare putting a new ball in play +1 = 2 ; play shot to green (or back into bunker) +1 = 3

 

[Cobbslane]

I don't think any anyone has answered your last point. No need to ask the R&A - the player is the sole judge of whether his ball is unplayable or not.

I understand that as it is explicitly stated in the rules by the R&A but as they seem to take great care to define things such as 'holed', 'stance', 'flagstick' which to many may seem blindingly obvious I thought I'd see if such a definition of 'unplayable' existed which as we have seen is down to much more 'interpretation'.

 

[Cobbslane]

I'd encourage that you don't let this dent your understanding of the 'spirit of the game'. It is simply using the rules as they allow - to your best benefit. Don't worry about how a competitor might see things - unless you are picking him up on a rule break...

Many times we get clobbered by the rules and will think 'that's sooo unfair' - well when I were a wee lad wailing that complaint, an auld fella told me 'golf was never meant to be fair laddie'. So use the rules as best you can - to ameliorate the pain of when they work against you.

That's good advice, thanks.

 

[Cobbslane]

But


Just to check - taking S&D as here is equivalent to putting a new ball in play from the original position. Or have I got it wrong?

1) Hit ball into greenside bunker = 1; penalty stroke and distance back to point shot played from +1 = 2; play shot to green (or back into bunker) +1 = 3
2) Hit ball into greenside bunker = 1; drop ball at point shot played from and declare putting a new ball in play +1 = 2 ; play shot to green (or back into bunker) +1 = 3

Yes that would be my understanding too. Similar to three of the tee.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I understand that as it is explicitly stated in the rules by the R&A but as they seem to take great care to define things such as 'holed', 'stance', 'flagstick' which to many may seem blindingly obvious I thought I'd see if such a definition of 'unplayable' existed which as we have seen is down to much more 'interpretation'.

Just imagine how messy and controversial in practice a definition of unplayable could become if, for example, it were to try and rule on the same scenario but separately and equally for both left-handers and right-handers

 

[rulefan]

Is there an 'R&A' definition for unplayable btw?

I think Rule 19.1 should suffice.
19.1 Player May Decide to Take Unplayable Ball Relief Anywhere Except Penalty Area
A player is the only person who may decide to treat his or her ball as unplayable by taking penalty relief under Rule 19.2 or 19.3.

In fact a player doesn't even have to find or be able to see his ball to deem it unplayable.

 

[Cobbslane]

I get your comment, but guess the fact that it's open to everyone to do the same (if they bother to read the rules) that makes doing this completely equitable

Yes I agree. But I said elsewhere this aspect of the game in not just about reading the rules but their interpretation and application in different circumstances too.

 

[rulefan]

Yes that would be my understanding too. Similar to three of the tee.

You mentioned a 2 stroke penalty earlier. That would only apply if you were taking 'back on the line relief' from the bunker under 19.3 (ie not S&D)

19.3b As an extra relief option when a player’s ball is in a bunker, for a total of two penalty strokes, the player may take back-on-the-line relief outside the bunker under Rule 19.2b.

But remember, in all cases you still have to get past the bunker and the ball knows its way now.

 

[Cobbslane]

Do you really not know the answer to that one? And, I'm sorry, I don't think giving yourself a one stroke penalty, in accordance with the rules, is in any way against the spirit of the game, less so than hitting your provisional down the middle, then deciding not to look for the original.

I think you might be misunderstanding my earliest point.
I have no problem with the application of the penalty stroke and certainly do not think that this is against the spirit of the game. My original point was that to declare a ball lying perfectly on the sand in a bunker without any obstruction to a shot being conventionally made as 'unplayable' seemed to me to go against the spirit of the game. It now seems that I am very very much in the minority with that particular aspect. I was taught that unless the ball in a bunker was properly unable to be played then you would be 'expected' to take a shot, have a go, do your best etc and learn from the experience. Hence the need for the appropriate wedge and lessons in the art of bunker play. I now recognise and accept that this is not current practice and avoiding the horrors of bunker play is quite normal if you wish to do so. As a result I look forward to a reduced handicap which is perhaps also something to which I should no longer aspire. Or am I wrong there too? Perhaps when SKY shows us Rory or Tiger taking stroke and distance to avoid the worst of the pot bunkers at St Andrews I will feel better about it. Sorry for being so conventional.

 

[rosecott]

I understand that as it is explicitly stated in the rules by the R&A but as they seem to take great care to define things such as 'holed', 'stance', 'flagstick' which to many may seem blindingly obvious I thought I'd see if such a definition of 'unplayable' existed which as we have seen is down to much more 'interpretation'.

Nothing at all to do with interpretation. The player decides the ball is unplayable therefore the ball is unplayable - no question.

You're having a good time with your first posting - welcome.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think you might be misunderstanding my earliest point.
I have no problem with the application of the penalty stroke and certainly do not think that this is against the spirit of the game. My original point was that to declare a ball lying perfectly on the sand in a bunker without any obstruction to a shot being conventionally made as 'unplayable' seemed to me to go against the spirit of the game. It now seems that I am very very much in the minority with that particular aspect. I was taught that unless the ball in a bunker was properly unable to be played then you would be 'expected' to take a shot, have a go, do your best etc and learn from the experience. Hence the need for the appropriate wedge and lessons in the art of bunker play. I now recognise and accept that this is not current practice and avoiding the horrors of bunker play is quite normal if you wish to do so. As a result I look forward to a reduced handicap which is perhaps also something to which I should no longer aspire. Or am I wrong there too? Perhaps when SKY shows us Rory or Tiger taking stroke and distance to avoid the worst of the pot bunkers at St Andrews I will feel better about it. Sorry for being so conventional.

Not controversial - a good discussion and learning on the alternatives we have available.

Of course when you go back and are playing your 4th to the green from a distance (with possibility you'll end up back in the bunker) I'd always consider a short period of time practicing bunker play would be an extremely profitable use of time towards saving a good few shot each round. Get out of the bunker and onto the green first time - and your fellows are on the green at least two shots better off than the alternative approach. Three bunkers = 6 shots

 

[ManinBlack]

I think you might be misunderstanding my earliest point.
I have no problem with the application of the penalty stroke and certainly do not think that this is against the spirit of the game. My original point was that to declare a ball lying perfectly on the sand in a bunker without any obstruction to a shot being conventionally made as 'unplayable' seemed to me to go against the spirit of the game. It now seems that I am very very much in the minority with that particular aspect. I was taught that unless the ball in a bunker was properly unable to be played then you would be 'expected' to take a shot, have a go, do your best etc and learn from the experience. Hence the need for the appropriate wedge and lessons in the art of bunker play. I now recognise and accept that this is not current practice and avoiding the horrors of bunker play is quite normal if you wish to do so. As a result I look forward to a reduced handicap which is perhaps also something to which I should no longer aspire. Or am I wrong there too? Perhaps when SKY shows us Rory or Tiger taking stroke and distance to avoid the worst of the pot bunkers at St Andrews I will feel better about it. Sorry for being so conventional.

I understood you perfectly.

 

[cliveb]

I was taught that unless the ball in a bunker was properly unable to be played then you would be 'expected' to take a shot, have a go, do your best etc and learn from the experience. Hence the need for the appropriate wedge and lessons in the art of bunker play. I now recognise and accept that this is not current practice and avoiding the horrors of bunker play is quite normal if you wish to do so. As a result I look forward to a reduced handicap which is perhaps also something to which I should no longer aspire.

Surely the bottom line is that being able to play out of bunkers is a skill worth having. Taking a penalty every time you end up in one isn't going to help your score. But if for whatever reason you feel that taking that penalty will give you a better result than attempting to play the bunker shot, then that is the sensible choice. But nobody here is suggesting that it's not worth improving your bunker play.

And I don't understand your last sentence. How can "avoiding the horrors of bunker play" by taking S&D penalties reduce your handicap? (Unless you're saying that you routinely have trouble getting out of bunkers but had never considered taking S&D until now - is that it?).

 

[rulefan]

I was taught that unless the ball in a bunker was properly unable to be played then you would be 'expected' to take a shot, have a go, do your best etc and learn from the experience.

I don't think that has ever been 'expected' unless you were not playing competitively. The expectation when playing competitively would be that you would determine what was needed to get the best score - particularly if you were playing with a partner. Of course you are expected to play (score?) your best when in a handicap competition.
"have a go, do your best etc and learn from the experience" is all very well but could it not just as much to be considered 'practising' and against the spirit of the game?
Learning to play strokes should be done on the practice ground.

 

[Colin L]

I understand that as it is explicitly stated in the rules by the R&A but as they seem to take great care to define things such as 'holed', 'stance', 'flagstick' which to many may seem blindingly obvious I thought I'd see if such a definition of 'unplayable' existed which as we have seen is down to much more 'interpretation'.

You're looking for a definition that is already there in Rule 19. As I indicated earlier, the R&A is likely just to put the words of that Rule back to you and say that an unplayable ball is one that the player has decided to treat as unplayable. In other words, the definition is in the rule itself.

You might to look more closely at the wording. It does not say that the player can decide his ball is unplayable, but that he can decide to treat it as unplayable. That is significant in terms of taking away requirement that the ball actually cannot be played.

 

[backwoodsman]

Before considering whether one feels that declaring a "perfectly" lying ball as unplayable is contrary to the "spirit of the game" - and regardless of whether it's in a bunker or not - you need to remember Rule 18.1 Which simply says that, at any time a player may take stroke and distance relief. No reason necessary other than that the player fancies ignoring the shot just played, and wants to take the shot again under penalty. Declaring a ball unplayable is no different - except it gives more options of where one can play from.

 

[clubchamp98]

I think you might be misunderstanding my earliest point.
I have no problem with the application of the penalty stroke and certainly do not think that this is against the spirit of the game. My original point was that to declare a ball lying perfectly on the sand in a bunker without any obstruction to a shot being conventionally made as 'unplayable' seemed to me to go against the spirit of the game. It now seems that I am very very much in the minority with that particular aspect. I was taught that unless the ball in a bunker was properly unable to be played then you would be 'expected' to take a shot, have a go, do your best etc and learn from the experience. Hence the need for the appropriate wedge and lessons in the art of bunker play. I now recognise and accept that this is not current practice and avoiding the horrors of bunker play is quite normal if you wish to do so. As a result I look forward to a reduced handicap which is perhaps also something to which I should no longer aspire. Or am I wrong there too? Perhaps when SKY shows us Rory or Tiger taking stroke and distance to avoid the worst of the pot bunkers at St Andrews I will feel better about it. Sorry for being so conventional.

We have a guy who does exactly this.
The bunker linings intimidate him and he just can’t play out of them .
So S&D is his best chance of a reasonable score on the hole.
We had a laugh couple of weeks ago as he called unplayable but his ball was short but he couldn’t see it.