Smoothing the bunker to care for the course

[Steven Rules]

That was under the 'old' Rules but the same principle and penalty would still apply today under Clarification 8.1d(2)/3. If a player enters a bunker on the line of play they must not restore worsened conditions.

 

[bobmac]

Fun fact. Back in 'the good old days' (1984, Rule 13-4 to be precise), the Rules permiited the player to place his** clubs in a hazard^, provided nothing is done which may constitute testing the soil or improving the lie of the ball.

Yes I'm aware of those rules but I would never take my bag into a bunker because there would often be someone telling me I couldn't...not worth the hassle

The same 1984 Rule also permitted that, after playing a stroke from a bunker and the ball remains in the same bunker, the player or caddie may smooth sand or soil in the hazard^ provided nothing is done which improves the lie of the ball or assists the player in his** subsequent play of the hole.

Did you ever have concerns back in the good old days that people were taking advantage of these provisions to cheat by improving their lie or testing the conditions?

No, because he didn't touch the sand before his first attempt. Raking the sand after his first shot but before his second shot is not going give him any more info than he got from playing the first shot. However, I would play both shots then collect the rake and 'tidy' both areas at the same time where practicle

 

[bobmac]

No, that does not follow at all. What a leap of logic to take.

Makes pefect sense to me.
Don't touch the sand...no doubt
Touch the sand removes the ''no doubt'' scenario

 

[bobmac]

Yes I'm aware of those rules but I would never take my bag into a bunker because there would often be someone telling me I couldn't...not worth the hassle

No, because he didn't touch the sand before his first attempt. Raking the sand after his first shot but before his second shot is not going give him any more info than he got from playing the first shot. However, I would play both shots then collect the rake and 'tidy' both areas at the same time where practical

 

[Steven Rules]

Yes I'm aware of those rules but I would never take my bag into a bunker because there would often be someone telling me I couldn't...not worth the hassle

No, because he didn't touch the sand before his first attempt. Raking the sand after his first shot but before his second shot is not going give him any more info than he got from playing the first shot. However, I would play both shots then collect the rake and 'tidy' both areas at the same time where practicle

That's you, Bob. I have every confidence in your own personal scruples. But the gist of my question was whether you think those Rules, which existed four and more decades ago (and still survive today), were seen as inviting, or creating an environment for, the unscrupulous to 'cheat' back then?

 

[Swango1980]

Yes I'm aware of those rules but I would never take my bag into a bunker because there would often be someone telling me I couldn't...not worth the hassle

This is something that I have done. Not frequently, but I've played the odd course with extremely large bunkers, and if my ball is a long way from the boundary, I've simply carried my bad in with me.

In all honestly, I had zero worry about being questioned about it, because it is crystal clear in the rules it can be done. It would be a very simple thing to explain if anyone did question me on it, there is no subjectivity or doubt as to what intentions I may or may not have.

It seems strange that being questioned is something that you think would be a hassle. Are their other things you refrain from doing just in case someone questions you on it? If you have leaves on your ball in the bunker, do you just leave them there in case anybody questions you?

 

[bobmac]

That's you, Bob. I have every confidence in your own personal scruples. But the gist of my question was whether you think those Rules, which existed four and more decades ago (and still survive today), were seen as inviting, or creating an environment for, the unscrupulous to 'cheat' back then?

I'm just saying that increasing the things you can do within the sand increases the possibility for those with less scruples to take advantage of the new rules.
Before the rule change, unscrupulous people knew if they touched the sand, penalties would be forthcoming.
After the rule change they could have access to the sand and use 'tidying' as the excuse.
As you said yourself

That is good life advice to follow, and would certainly avoid any doubt

 

[bobmac]

It seems strange that being questioned is something that you think would be a hassle. Are their other things you refrain from doing just in case someone questions you on it? If you have leaves on your ball in the bunker, do you just leave them there in case anybody questions you?

There are things that are allowed within the rules but not well known by casual, once a month golfers would come into that category of too much hassle.
Taking a bag into a bunker, especially a smallish bunker is something I would never do, or grounding my club in a water hazard (PA) is just not worth the time having to explain it.

 

[Swango1980]

There are things that are allowed within the rules but not well known by casual, once a month golfers would come into that category of too much hassle.
Taking a bag into a bunker, especially a smallish bunker is something I would never do, or grounding my club in a water hazard (PA) is just not worth the time having to explain it.

There is probably no point in taking your clubs into a small bunker or a medium sized bunker, so not really a scenario worth mentioning. But, for a very large bunker, it could well be a very good idea to bring one in, especially a fairway bunker and you don't know the club you want to take. No time at all to tell anyone who might question it that it is allowed.

You don't ground your club in a PA? As far as I'm aware, nearly everyone does that now. Maybe you have to reassess what rules are generally well known and which ones are not. Not everyone is still living in the dark ages, so you might be restricting yourself in certain areas that is unnecessary.

 

[bobmac]

Another thing I would never do is stand in a bunker leaning on my club with it in the sand, waiting for my turn to play.
eg

 

[salfordlad]

Thanks Colin. So have you ever yourself, or heard tale of another referee, declared a breach of the rule?

Surely if it’s obvious enough that they’re testing conditions by raking, is it not more likely that they know they’re breaking a rule rather than making an honest un-informed mistake? Therefore a cheat. And surely a cheat would lie and say they were caring for the course when confronted? Because they’re a cheat.

Which just leaves those deliberately testing conditions, without knowing it’s a rule breach. I can’t believe that’s a common occurrence. Especially when most of us play in bunkers that vary drastically from one square yard to another.

I, too, have not seen this rule breached while reffing or while playing. Furthermore, in the higher-level events that are more likely to have referees, the players are generally very well behaved in the presence of a referee. And as others have noted, the effective referee, wherever possible - in stroke play and when assigned to a specific match - will prevent breaches from occurring.

 

[Steven Rules]

Another thing I would never do is stand in a bunker leaning on my club with it in the sand, waiting for my turn to play.
eg

View attachment 56553

Why not?

 

[bobmac]

There is probably no point in taking your clubs into a small bunker or a medium sized bunker, so not really a scenario worth mentioning.

Is it allowed in the rules?

But, for a very large bunker, it could well be a very good idea to bring one in, especially a fairway bunker and you don't know the club you want to take. No time at all to tell anyone who might question it that it is allowed.

Less likely to be questioned.

You don't ground your club in a PA? As far as I'm aware, nearly everyone does that now.

But not all know they can.

Maybe you have to reassess what rules are generally well known and which ones are not. Not everyone is still living in the dark ages, so you might be restricting yourself in certain areas that is unnecessary.

By not taking my bag into a bunker???
If I ever start playing golf again, I will consider your advice.

 

[bobmac]

Why not?

If you don't know, I'm not going to explain it to you

 

[clubchamp98]

I have visions of a members golf club setting up cameras at strategic points on every hole, and if there is a rules dispute, getting VAR to review the incident and deciding what action to take.

They would just go with the on course decision.

 

[clubchamp98]

Assuming you have indeed remembered correctly, was this action a breach?

Doesn’t Rule 12 cover what you can/can’t do in the bunker your “ball is in”?

Sure he was penalised because it was on his line of play.

 

[clubchamp98]

Tour school two stroke penalty...ouch.

That has got to sting.. https://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/news/tour-news/european-tour-hopeful-falls-foul-of-unusual-golf-rule-168333

forums.golfmonthly.com

Glad the old grey matter is still working
Thanks for the digging

 

[Steven Rules]

If you don't know, I'm not going to explain it to you

You're worried about damaging the club?

 

[Colin L]

And of course everyone knows the rule book inside out.

Please don't put words in my mouth

I was of course talking about me in a bunker, nobody else

The problem for a player who breaches a rule because he doesn't know the rule is that the rules work on the stated basis that the player is expected to know them. Your personal practice never to touch the sand in a bunker until you have played is foolproof in that respect although unnecessary and not the necessarily the better thing to do if raking a bit of the bunker before your shot would save time.

Sorry about the grumpy old man bit. It was meant to be humorous - one member of the fraternity recognising another sort of thing.

 

[Swango1980]

Is it allowed in the rules?

Absolutely, it is allowed in the rules. But, I was simply thinking about the scenario in real life, and it would seem a lot more hassle to carry your bag into a small bunker. So why bother, even if it allowed? Of course, perhaps there would be a good reason in a specific case, so go for it.

I was simply saying it is more applicable for a large bunker. Probably easier to get in, and the advantage is that you can take your clubs with you, and decide on your shot once you get to your ball. Rather than leaving your clubs outside the bunker, walking back and forth, etc.