Foxholer
Blackballed
Correct impact (for the desired shot) is really all that matters!
Everything else is simply a method of (repeatably) achieving the above!
Everything else is simply a method of (repeatably) achieving the above!
What part of the swing plane is the most important ?
- Thread starter the_coach
- Start date
Maninblack4612
Tour Winner
Just read a Ben Hogan quote "You don't hit the ball with your backswing, sonny"
Jensen
Tour Rookie
This is my thinking too
Jensen
Tour Rookie
I remember Andrew Coltart on Sky stating " this game is called golf NOT swing. It's about taking the fewest shots "
Very true we can get caught up trying to have the prettiest swing.
Very true we can get caught up trying to have the prettiest swing.
the_coach
Journeyman Pro
so some interesting thoughts already in the thread from folks around what 'plane' maybes is
&/or what maybes is the most important part of 'plane' in a golf swing
think overall so far folks thoughts have highlighted how confusing a concept many find it
wonderin before i put some thoughts down on what i think is maybes worth considering about what 'plane' ?
do these photo-shopped images of a Palmer in his prime from the early 60s Stenson & Kuchar prompt any change of mind at all about 'plane' & club head delivery
also where does the very exaggerated "lay down" teaching thoughts fit in to a good functional golf swing and might that all just be complicating things ?
& any more thoughts over "steep" versus "shallow" ?
or whether there is something else really goin on with delivering the club to impact in a functional golf swing ?
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&/or what maybes is the most important part of 'plane' in a golf swing
think overall so far folks thoughts have highlighted how confusing a concept many find it
wonderin before i put some thoughts down on what i think is maybes worth considering about what 'plane' ?
do these photo-shopped images of a Palmer in his prime from the early 60s Stenson & Kuchar prompt any change of mind at all about 'plane' & club head delivery
also where does the very exaggerated "lay down" teaching thoughts fit in to a good functional golf swing and might that all just be complicating things ?
& any more thoughts over "steep" versus "shallow" ?
or whether there is something else really goin on with delivering the club to impact in a functional golf swing ?
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Still think Impact is most important but obviously the more repeatable your plane the more consistent your strike will be.
your plane will be dictated by your height , arm length, and club your using .
I have to be honest it’s something I don’t think about and is far to technical for most ams to think about.
your plane will be dictated by your height , arm length, and club your using .
I have to be honest it’s something I don’t think about and is far to technical for most ams to think about.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
If the face is square to target the ball will finish on target. The swing path just dictates how it gets there, out to in and it will fly left to right, in to out and it will fly right to left
bobmac
Major Champion
Really?
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
Has to be the six inches into impact. The ball doesn't care what the rest of it is like and only reacts to the strike put on it. The Practice Manual by Adam Young clearly explains the ball/flight laws and the relationship to club face and path to the direction and shape of the shot. Great reading a brilliant book that has made a lot of sense to me
Maninblack4612
Tour Winner
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=B...=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=8kOu6NngoXklMM:
If the face is square to target the ball will start in the direction of the target. If the swingpath is open or closed to target line the ball will slice or hook. That's physics.
Slime
Tour Winner
Not really!
As far as I'm aware it will merely START on target.
If the swing path is out to in or in to out the ball cannot possibly finish on target ...................... unless it hits a tree or something.
Please, anyone, correct me if I'm mistaken.
Maninblack4612
Tour Winner
See post #30 or consult Sir Isaac Newton for further information
ademac
Q-School Graduate
I like that chart. 👍
drdel
Tour Rookie
yep 6 inches before and the couple of inches after impact.
Loads of different ways to swing the club(s) but still get good results - e.g. Bubba Watson c.f. Adam Scott.
Slime
Tour Winner
Yup, just as I thought.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
It actually looks like Newton got it slightly too basic when it comes to golf.
His view was that an object will travel in the direction of the force that is applied to it, the direction of force in this example being the path of the swing,
until acted on by another force.
So maybe the compression and release of the ball are and effective side spin are the forces applied which change the balls initial direction from the first applied force.
I accede that modern ball tracking techniques have shown what I was taught 40 years ago to be out of kilter with todays thinking.
Maninblack4612
Tour Winner
I think Newton would explain it by saying that the force applied to the ball has two components. 90% or so is at right angles to the face & 10% left or right. It's the 10% element which applies the spin & the 90% which moves it forward. I got A level Physics 55 years ago, I don't think anything much has changed since then.
the_coach
Journeyman Pro
*bump*
originally posted this thread a while back to see what folks understood or not about the relevance of 'plane'
during folks posts it kinda got partly sidetracked in a different direction to some points that weren't my original intention
i believe that if folks had a better understanding of how 'final impact plane angle' was important & why that was - their concept of the 'organization' of their own swing motions could be improved some in a ways that would greatly help their possibility of better swing improvements
of course all parts of set-up & the swing are important (a good grip hold alone being paramount to avoiding having to make compromising compensatory motions during the swing - which then are more likely to lead to errors)
but really speaking the most important part of 'plane' of a swing is the 'plane angle destination at impact' as that shaft angle is fundamentally important to having an optimal centered strike a good complementary face angle along with all the other necessary launch condition factors (AoA/swing direction/dynamic loft etc)
in the part picture of mcIlroy below the red line is the plane of the final plane destination at impact which has just been extended up & back you can see from just below the top of the of transition if you look at the shaft angles above the red line you will see the the first or top shaft is not that far away from bein parallel to the red line (impact plan angle)
if you then look at the next shaft angle when the lead arm would be around horizontal to the ground you will see how that shaft angle is even closer to being parallel to the red line (final impact plane angle)
now you can also note from these shaft images "that nowhere in this movement has their been an active & exaggerated lay down or shallowing of the shaft angle"
all that's happened from the top of the backswing through good sequencing is the shaft has moved to get very close or on the final shaft plane angle at impact
from the last shaft angle above the red line where the hands/handle are above the waist height all that happens is through good body (hips clearing upper body rotation) & arm motion the shaft just continues to lower to the red line impact plane
you could still say in this image of mcIlroy the shaft angles here are relatively what a ton of folks would still call on the 'steep' side - very definitely they have not been 'artificially flattened'
if you applied the same research yourselves to the majority of the players on tour you would see very similar images across most players
some like Jack Nicklaus would have an even 'steeper' initial shaft plane angle when the lead arm is around horizontal to the ground Palmer Stenson - a couple of these players images with the same final impact red line treatments I posted earlier in this thread post #25
what's the take home point of all of this - well ideally at around the part of the downswing just before the lead arm gets to be horizontal to the ground the shaft plane angle needs to be real close or 'on' (as in parallel to) the final functional impact plane
learn to find a good impact position - there are many images many you tube video lessons that indicate how to find good impact position good final shaft plane angle & where the body & arms/hands are to achieve this
many pga golf pros give lessons that include a posed optimum impact position from there the key the real take home point is relating the shaft plane angle in the early part of the downswing to match up to the final impact plane as in the pic above
it's not about a debate between a 1 or 2 plane swing (as technically when you investigate 'plane' in 3d space using 3d analysis you can clearly see that the 'plane' of the clubhead is entirely different to the 'plane' the clubhead moves on) & neither is it about having to have any drastic 'lay down' at transition this for most will confuse the issue as the change that then has to be made to get the shaft on an optimum final shaft plane angle is huge & the downswing only lasts approximately 0.27 seconds give or take a few milliseconds
originally posted this thread a while back to see what folks understood or not about the relevance of 'plane'
during folks posts it kinda got partly sidetracked in a different direction to some points that weren't my original intention
i believe that if folks had a better understanding of how 'final impact plane angle' was important & why that was - their concept of the 'organization' of their own swing motions could be improved some in a ways that would greatly help their possibility of better swing improvements
of course all parts of set-up & the swing are important (a good grip hold alone being paramount to avoiding having to make compromising compensatory motions during the swing - which then are more likely to lead to errors)
but really speaking the most important part of 'plane' of a swing is the 'plane angle destination at impact' as that shaft angle is fundamentally important to having an optimal centered strike a good complementary face angle along with all the other necessary launch condition factors (AoA/swing direction/dynamic loft etc)
in the part picture of mcIlroy below the red line is the plane of the final plane destination at impact which has just been extended up & back you can see from just below the top of the of transition if you look at the shaft angles above the red line you will see the the first or top shaft is not that far away from bein parallel to the red line (impact plan angle)
if you then look at the next shaft angle when the lead arm would be around horizontal to the ground you will see how that shaft angle is even closer to being parallel to the red line (final impact plane angle)
now you can also note from these shaft images "that nowhere in this movement has their been an active & exaggerated lay down or shallowing of the shaft angle"
all that's happened from the top of the backswing through good sequencing is the shaft has moved to get very close or on the final shaft plane angle at impact
from the last shaft angle above the red line where the hands/handle are above the waist height all that happens is through good body (hips clearing upper body rotation) & arm motion the shaft just continues to lower to the red line impact plane
you could still say in this image of mcIlroy the shaft angles here are relatively what a ton of folks would still call on the 'steep' side - very definitely they have not been 'artificially flattened'
if you applied the same research yourselves to the majority of the players on tour you would see very similar images across most players
some like Jack Nicklaus would have an even 'steeper' initial shaft plane angle when the lead arm is around horizontal to the ground Palmer Stenson - a couple of these players images with the same final impact red line treatments I posted earlier in this thread post #25
what's the take home point of all of this - well ideally at around the part of the downswing just before the lead arm gets to be horizontal to the ground the shaft plane angle needs to be real close or 'on' (as in parallel to) the final functional impact plane
learn to find a good impact position - there are many images many you tube video lessons that indicate how to find good impact position good final shaft plane angle & where the body & arms/hands are to achieve this
many pga golf pros give lessons that include a posed optimum impact position from there the key the real take home point is relating the shaft plane angle in the early part of the downswing to match up to the final impact plane as in the pic above
it's not about a debate between a 1 or 2 plane swing (as technically when you investigate 'plane' in 3d space using 3d analysis you can clearly see that the 'plane' of the clubhead is entirely different to the 'plane' the clubhead moves on) & neither is it about having to have any drastic 'lay down' at transition this for most will confuse the issue as the change that then has to be made to get the shaft on an optimum final shaft plane angle is huge & the downswing only lasts approximately 0.27 seconds give or take a few milliseconds
sawtooth
Tour Winner
Apex of the swing arc?
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Too difficult a question for me I am afraid. When I think too much about swing paths and planes and such-like - things tend to go badly wrong.
