Tour school two stroke penalty...ouch.

[User 99]

Not getting into the game of playing the poster and not the post.

Back to this thread, very tough call, bloke has made, what looks like, a genuine innocent mistake, the implication of turning a blind eye to this for him and for one other is massive, I fully agree with the officials actions as they have no choice, if, however, this rule being highlighted to the authorities forces a change then all well and good, the game is trying to simplify and evolve all the time, but you still can’t allow different officials or competitions to pick and choose which rules to enforce.

I absolutely agree officials can't decide which rules they call or not but are you telling me you call out every single rule breach you witness in your daily/weekly/monthly game ? If so, I'm surprised you still have PP's to play with.

As for playing the poster not the post, there are a few on here who do it regularly, sure you know who they are.

 

[Crow]

So, I have read the rule again and still waiting for a reasonable response to my genuine question.
The rule says I must not improve my line of play by - among other things - pressing down loose soil.
I am about to hit into a green 165yds away. I walk ahead of my ball on a line to the green to check the green is clear. I take a 7 iron and hit the ball, airborne all the way on to the green.
Can anyone be sure I have not pressed down loose soil in my action of walking ahead of my ball on a line to the green and therefore have I improved my line of play?

I'll have a go at this one.

I think that the rule is referring to deliberate pressing down of loose soil, similar to removing loose soil from the fringe before a putt.

In your scenario, it's very difficult to to be sure that you've not pressed any loose soil down in your walking ahead to check the green but even if you did it's highly unlikely to have given you an advantage over other players so the rules take a "common sense" () approach and don't concern themselves with the possibility.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I absolutely agree officials can't decide which rules they call or not but are you telling me you call out every single rule breach you witness in your daily/weekly/monthly game ? If so, I'm surprised you still have PP's to play with.

As for playing the poster not the post, there are a few on here who do it regularly, sure you know who they are.

Personally I don't know all the rules, but will help or take advice when it happens, if it's in a comp and I didn't know or agree I'd play 2 balls on that hole to finish and sort it later.
This thread is about an event on the Euro PGA qualifier and some want it treated like a work society day!

 

[User 99]

This thread is about an event on the Euro PGA qualifier and some want it treated like a work society day!

Yet some seem to be suggesting that had it been in a work society day the same rule should be applied, which despite being the rules of golf is a bit ludicrous, IMO.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Yet some seem to be suggesting that had it been in a work society day the same rule should be applied, which despite being the rules of golf is a bit ludicrous, IMO.

I don't think anyone on here has suggested that, that's more your interpratation, there are plenty of threads were people have explained how they approach rule infringments and it varies on the circumstances of the game, unfortunately, like you, I have experienced societies playing for social reasons and those that believe their event is bigger than the masters, both types containing the local Rules Guru (in their own mind)

 

[Beedee]

Out of interest, for all those saying no one can ever ignore any rule breaking, do you immediately call a 2 stroke penalty when someone says "take your time"? I know if I did I'd be very short of people willing to play with me again.

Back to this case; would it be so bad with a change in the rule to say "...and advantage is gained". If you rake a bunker and then land in it - penalty. If you stamp down rough and then land in it - penalty. If you clear it 30 yards in the air, then just move on!

 

[User 99]

I played with a guy in pour winter league on Sunday who breached the provisional ball rule on two occasions, where he never stated he was playing a provisional ball, I knew immediately he had breached the rule, I said nothing, to counter that, in a seniors comp. earlier in the season, I again witnessed the same thing, I mentioned to the bloke after his original ball was found that he needs to state he is playing a provisional ball, it was an uncomfortable moment but I still didn't penalise him.

 

[drdel]

I have not suggested rule breaking or that this rule is, of itself wrong: IMO its simply that the punishment exceeded this crime and I still believe that context is absolutely paramount.

I'd ask, those who state the Rules must always be rigidly followed irrespective of context, a couple of simple questions on scenarios occurring everyday...

1. Do you report yourself every time you exceed the speed limit?
2. Do you report you partner who may be driving if they commit a minor traffic violation?

If you answer 'No' . Then you should follow an earlier poster's advice and stop driving!!!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I have not suggested rule breaking or that this rule is, of itself wrong: IMO its simply that the punishment exceeded this crime and I still believe that context is absolutely paramount.

I'd ask, those who state the Rules must always be rigidly followed irrespective of context, a couple of simple questions on scenarios occurring everyday...

1. Do you report yourself every time you exceed the speed limit?
2. Do you report you partner who may be driving if they commit a minor traffic violation?

If you answer 'No' . Then you should follow an earlier poster's advice and stop driving!!!

If I unintentionally speed on a motorway and arrive home safely without causing any incidents then receive a ticket from an overhead speed camera, should the Police let me off as no harm was done and I really really promise it was unintentional.

Going back to the Golf, he was possibly going to be rewarded with millions of pounds if he continued to progress through to the top level in the very near future.

 

[Sweep]

I'll have a go at this one.

I think that the rule is referring to deliberate pressing down of loose soil, similar to removing loose soil from the fringe before a putt.

In your scenario, it's very difficult to to be sure that you've not pressed any loose soil down in your walking ahead to check the green but even if you did it's highly unlikely to have given you an advantage over other players so the rules take a "common sense" () approach and don't concern themselves with the possibility.

Thank you and I believe you are correct. If I am penalised for this breach then all hell will break loose, so everyone from the “every rule is sacred” brigade to those who would take a common sense approach choose to ignore it. Which is exactly what should have happened here, unless the chap duffed it into the bunker he had just raked. As everyone says, you can’t just ignore a breach and yet they do.
In my view the rule should only be breached if an advantage was gained. In this case if he went in the bunker he had just raked he could be deemed to have gained an advantage so you can do him and no-one would have an issue.
As for logic, there are some that say we shouldn’t look for logic in the rules. But if golf is going to ever reach its full potential and lose this reputation of being a bit eccentric or even plain daft then the rules have to be as logical as possible.
Try explaining to anyone who has ever seen a “Please repair pitch marks and rake bunkers” sign why we have just penalised someone for doing exactly that and you will get a very strange look.

 

[Sweep]

If I unintentionally speed on a motorway and arrive home safely without causing any incidents then receive a ticket from an overhead speed camera, should the Police let me off as no harm was done and I really really promise it was unintentional.

Going back to the Golf, he was possibly going to be rewarded with millions of pounds if he continued to progress through to the top level in the very near future.

No because you should have reported yourself before getting home.
As for golf, the guy has now had his living impeded because he raked a bunker he never even went in.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

No because you should have reported yourself before getting home.
As for golf, the guy has now had his living impeded because he raked a bunker he never even went in.

But I didn't realise the speed limit was reduced for the section I was caught in, just like he didn't realise raking the bunker was breaking the rules.

And just like him I'll accept the punishment and learn from it.

 

[Sweep]

But I didn't realise the speed limit was reduced for the section I was caught in, just like he didn't realise raking the bunker was breaking the rules.

And just like him I'll accept the punishment and learn from it.

Then you should report yourself for driving without due care and attention as well.

 

[User 99]

Then you should report yourself for driving without due care and attention as well.

Now that made me chuckle

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Then you should report yourself for driving without due care and attention as well.

Was on me way back from a Forum meet, not my fault

 

[Lord Tyrion]

We only know he had no advantage through hindsight, what if the next time somebody does see an issue with a bunker on their line and goes through the motion of pacing it out through the bunker in case they duff their shot and ensure they get a good lie? How do the rules officials spot the difference, neither player intends to go in the bunker, but both have entered the bunker prior to taking the shot for different reasons.

Beedee has pretty much answered this for me but I'll go again because I think it's a good point . If the player duffs his ball into the bunker that he has just raked then apply the penalty. If he clears the bunker then no penalty applies as no advantage has occurred. That seems logical to me.

A slight tweak to the rule so that no one gains from improving a lie but equally no one is penalised when a lie has not been altered, which it was not in this instance.

 

[GreiginFife]

Tricky one this and not one where I think that the professional game and the Sunday roll-up should be compared. Its possible, just in my opinion of course, that divergence between the professional game and the amateur game might be needed with regard rules. Common sense is all fine and well, and I agree that some of the rules are just plain bonkers, but you leave common sense or any other form of subjectivity in to a rules situation and you end up with golf becoming football where the official applying it might have a different view of what's common sense and what isn't. Red cards given in one game for a two footed tackle only getting a yellow in another... Not a place I'd like to see golf go. An official is having a bad day? Tha'ts a penalty stroke... next week having a blast in the sunshine, nah it wouldn't be fair to penalise. Then take that and apply it across multiple different officials with different values and beliefs and you get a whole gamut of what common sense is understood to be and so different applications week to week, official to official and a potential nightmare to administrate.

I think when it's a game with mates, not being a total dick is in order, but compare that to a field of 120 players competing for millions of dollars, possibly that requires a bit more regulation. And so the ability to "flex" in amateur games might be in order.

Again, just my opinion, but I spend a hell of a lot of time at work undoing problems caused where people deviated from the agreed process/rules because they thought common sense should apply, invariably costing tens of thousands of pounds each time.
The pro's play a different game to us anyway, why not separate us rules wise to? (I realise that this might be a step too far for some )

 

[garyinderry]

Really should not have been tramping through bunkers to pace out a distance.

Never seen a player or caddy do that in my life.


When did the rule break occur? When he trapsed through the bunker in the first place or when he raked it? It could be argued it was the former.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Beedee has pretty much answered this for me but I'll go again because I think it's a good point . If the player duffs his ball into the bunker that he has just raked then apply the penalty. If he clears the bunker then no penalty applies as no advantage has occurred. That seems logical to me.

A slight tweak to the rule so that no one gains from improving a lie but equally no one is penalised when a lie has not been altered, which it was not in this instance.

Or just don’t go in the bunker on your line or if you decide you will go through the bunker, pace it to the side, away from your line, ensuring there is no issue, the rule as we have all learnt (whether we agree with it or not) is quite straightforward, why does it need a tweek?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Tricky one this and not one where I think that the professional game and the Sunday roll-up should be compared. Its possible, just in my opinion of course, that divergence between the professional game and the amateur game might be needed with regard rules. Common sense is all fine and well, and I agree that some of the rules are just plain bonkers, but you leave common sense or any other form of subjectivity in to a rules situation and you end up with golf becoming football where the official applying it might have a different view of what's common sense and what isn't. Red cards given in one game for a two footed tackle only getting a yellow in another... Not a place I'd like to see golf go. An official is having a bad day? Tha'ts a penalty stroke... next week having a blast in the sunshine, nah it wouldn't be fair to penalise. Then take that and apply it across multiple different officials with different values and beliefs and you get a whole gamut of what common sense is understood to be and so different applications week to week, official to official and a potential nightmare to administrate.

I think when it's a game with mates, not being a total dick is in order, but compare that to a field of 120 players competing for millions of dollars, possibly that requires a bit more regulation. And so the ability to "flex" in amateur games might be in order.

Again, just my opinion, but I spend a hell of a lot of time at work undoing problems caused where people deviated from the agreed process/rules because they thought common sense should apply, invariably costing tens of thousands of pounds each time.
The pro's play a different game to us anyway, why not separate us rules wise to? (I realise that this might be a step too far for some )

There is some merit in your ideas but if you go down that road are you then going to bring in different equipment at some point.