Top 100 Courses feedback

[Ethan]

I think most readers would agree with the big picture conclusions, and although one can argue about whether Muirfield is a better course than RCD, most of us would agree that they are both at the top end of the rankings.

I have some experience in working on rating scales for measuring medical outcomes in clinical trials, and the problems are exactly the same as with golf courses. How many points do you give in a scale for arthritis (golf course) for pain (ambience) compared to mobility (design quality), and how do you deal with imbalances - say a course with terrible design but wonderful condition versus the other way round.

It is possible to deal with this by capping points for less important aspects. So a course couldn't earn more points for condition than it does for design, say. This would be the technical equivalent of saying you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Or by changing conditioning and ambience to a multiplier of the points awarded for design quality rather than an additional number of points. Great condition gets 125% points, terrible 75%, say. Both of these approaches peg the score better to course design. Also, conditioning varies with time, depending on recent weather, course treatment and traffic, so I think it is more possible to give an erroneous score for that. Course layout doesn't change so much.

 

[duncan mackie]

Hope the above has been of some interest.

Mike

hugely - thank you

 

[JezzE]

One or two further comments on Machrihanish etc, Crawford...

Interesting to read and quite happy to accept the (as Dodger says) the "pops" aimed at me. I'm quite happy to take these on the chin. I have a passion for both the courses at Machrihanish and yes I am biased to an extent and as much as you dress it up Machrihanish Dunes is a better course than The Castle Course at St Andrews. Visual appear and ambience is a criteria you say you weigh heavily on, well again in MY opinion you can't really get a better ambience and stunningly visual location and course than Machrihanish Dunes.

I also appreciate what Jezz said about it being in terrible condition in March after the horrendous winter storms that hit the area. That said it was in better condition than Machrihanish next door which if the Dunes was horrendous them Machrihanish was hellish! Just look back at further reports on the greens at Machrihanish by Dodger etc. Therefore I can't accept his argument that it has fallen due to that yet Machrihanish has remained in the top 50????
There's absolutely no doubting the setting or the quality of the layout at Machrihanish Dunes, but for me the damage to the course there was far worse that at Machrihanish, where it was largely confined to very poor putting surfaces and some standing water. There was much chat about what had caused the poor greens - either weather-related or possibly some sort of greenkeeping issue - and if it was the former, then every chance that things could have been back to normal by the summer. I haven't been back since, but assume you have so would know better than me whether things had improved. As for Machrihanish Dunes, the storms had actually washed away some greens, and some half dozen or so had had to be relayed, while the standing water problem was far worse there too in certain areas (can't quite remember where as we played the course the wrong way round, but think it was to the left of the 2nd or 3rd). I would also be as bold as to suggest that some of the greens at the Dunes are equally as quirky as those at the Castle Course - I think the 12th was one such example where putts from certain position were actually impossible - and the greenkeeper told me that that green had already been softened!


I also can't fathom why The Machrie has fallen so far as well. Yes I've not played it in the last year but from reports from Simon at Machrie the course is in tremendous condition. I appreciate the hotel is a bit run down however its undergoing a total renovation, that should not detract from the course which is top quality.
Hopefully it will be able to climb its way back in next time as we really like the idea of having an island course in there, but my colleague Rob Smith visited shortly after my Machrihanish trip and suggested it wasn't quite up to the standard right now.

I accept its all subjective and its down to individual opinions however I will still never accept in a million years that the Castle course is ever worthy of inclusion in the top 100 of any ranking.
Clearly you don't like the Castle Course, and I'd be interested to know why (beyond the widely acknowledged trickery of the greens) iit didn't tick any boxes for you? The setting is wonderful, some of the individual holes are great so I'm surprised it did nothing for you. I think were it not for the greens, we could well have seen it climb this time and indeed some panellists were adamant that it should be much higher. We held back on that because we genuinely believe the green complexes are a problem especially when someone is being asked to pay £150 or so to almost certainly play nowhere near their handicap given how tough things are on and around the greens.

Finally if the visual appearance and ambience are rated so much why is Lytham rated at 7 when it sits between a railway line and a housing estate?
Our visual appeal criterion is not confined to the external views, though that obviously helps - it's also about a course's inner beauty if you like. I've played Lytham 2 or 3 times and admit that after the first visit I'd have been in the same camp as you. But subsequently I've come to understand a little more what it's all about and can now see that within the boundaries of the course it has a very strong visual appeal - a bit like Bobby Jones learning to love and appreciate St Andrews I guess, although I'm not for one minute claiming anywhere near as educated a position as the great man on such issues. I also have to say that if you were to level this particular criticism at Lytham, then you would have little choice but to do likewise at Carnoustie where the surrounding views on some sides are even less glamourous than at Lytham

Horses for courses I guess and as usual I appreciate the stage to disagree with you as well as you taking the time to communicate with the readers.
Agreed. next time I'm up your way, perhaps we can have a game at one of your local courses and discuss things further over a pint or two afterwards!


Cheers. :thup:

 

[thecraw]

100% agree about Carnoustie, setting is not my cuppa either.

Even today at the Dunhill the gun club are holding a shooting competition right next to the course. Not exactly ideal.

 

[pokerjoke]

These reviews are probably the hardest to do.
You cant keep everyone happy,and im sure the GM team realise this when they start such projects.
People opinions on courses will always be different.
I played Ilfracombe today,not even in the top 300 courses in England i presume.
However i was more excited driving into the carpark,than some courses ive played in the top 100.
Why,purely because its where i started playing golf,and after a 100 rounds,every rounds a new challenge.
Will i ever master Ilfracombe,no never,but one things for sure,i will be just as excited every time i play it.
Well done to GM and all the testers,not an easy job,but someone got to take the flack.

 

[JezzE]

These reviews are probably the hardest to do.
You cant keep everyone happy,and im sure the GM team realise this when they start such projects.
People opinions on courses will always be different.
I played Ilfracombe today,not even in the top 300 courses in England i presume.
However i was more excited driving into the carpark,than some courses ive played in the top 100.
Why,purely because its where i started playing golf,and after a 100 rounds,every rounds a new challenge.
Will i ever master Ilfracombe,no never,but one things for sure,i will be just as excited every time i play it.
Well done to GM and all the testers,not an easy job,but someone got to take the flack.

Fond memories of Ilfracombe - played it 13 years ago on my birthday the day I proposed to my wife. Sadly, it was also the day Payne Stewart's plane came down.

So certainly a day I'll never forget for both good and bad reasons (better put my proposal in the former category in case my wife is a closet GM forumer!)

 

[pokerjoke]

Fond memories of Ilfracombe - played it 13 years ago on my birthday the day I proposed to my wife. Sadly, it was also the day Payne Stewart's plane came down.

So certainly a day I'll never forget for both good and bad reasons (better put my proposal in the former category in case my wife is a closet GM forumer!)

Nice to see you getting your prioritys right Jezz.
A nice game of golf before going down on one knee.
Im going to organize a forum day down there one day.
Maybe a day out for you,to bring back those good memories

 

[Foxholer]

Mike,

Thanks for the explanation - and demonstration of how much work goes into the process.

Good to see my 'favourite', if not my 'top' course is number 1 (again?). As has often been posted, these are subjective opinions so my particular criteria/weighting could well differ from those of the panelists.

And as a complete aside, I'm playing my 'favourite course to play' tomorrow - and it's probably some way away from your list of 170!

 

[JezzE]

Mike,

Thanks for the explanation - and demonstration of how much work goes into the process.

Good to see my 'favourite', if not my 'top' course is number 1 (again?). As has often been posted, these are subjective opinions so my particular criteria/weighting could well differ from those of the panelists.

And as a complete aside, I'm playing my 'favourite course to play' tomorrow - and it's probably some way away from your list of 170!

Come on then, spill the beans...

 

[Foxholer]

Mike,

Thanks for the explanation - and demonstration of how much work goes into the process.

Good to see my 'favourite', if not my 'top' course is number 1 (again?). As has often been posted, these are subjective opinions so my particular criteria/weighting could well differ from those of the panelists.

And as a complete aside, I'm playing my 'favourite course to play' tomorrow - and it's probably some way away from your list of 170!

Come on then, spill the beans..

.

The Shire London.

A truly FUN place to play golf - even the 'placidly evil' par 3 1st!

Great Risk/Reward off every tee, provided you pick the right ones for your level and the day's weather - particularly the breeze which seems unique to the course. The very back tees (Emerald) are too much for me (and Pros in competition apparently, on several holes. Tests every club in my bag, one of my criteria for 'complete' course, with the Driver not being used until 5!

One of only a couple I happily heave a Pencil bag on my back and drive 40 miles on my bike to play. The welcome is certainly much better than 'Old Fart's Manor' across the road. Take plenty of balls for the 5 lakes that come into play on 10 holes (plus a couple of ditches) and some bread for the swans and the begging duck ('Orange Sauce' on 8/15).

After the round, you can see how those following fare on Seve's signature hole. It's one of my favourite places to watch the sun set too!

Food is great and generally good value. Only negative is the relatively high price of cup of (excellent) coffee and the food buggy always seems to have just run out of soup when it reaches us - though it does serve beer!

And even though, I believe, the only 'dress code' is 'Soft Spikes' only, the only person I've seen wearing jeans is the owner.

 

[Val]

Mike/Jezz, not asking for justification (suppose I am by the question) but why would St Anne's Old Links or Leven Links not be in the top 100 or next 100. That at a glance are the biggest surprises for me. 2 fabulous links courses in cracking settings, for me Leven is the best of the links in fife outwith St Andrews (old, new and jubilee) and Kingsbarns.

 

[Dodger]

Mike/Jezz, not asking for justification (suppose I am by the question) but why would St Anne's Old Links or Leven Links not be in the top 100 or next 100. That at a glance are the biggest surprises for me. 2 fabulous links courses in cracking settings, for me Leven is the best of the links in fife outwith St Andrews (old, new and jubilee) and Kingsbarns.

Come on Val,really?

Leven? Really? Leven? Honestly?

 

[Foxholer]

Mike/Jezz, not asking for justification (suppose I am by the question) but why would St Anne's Old Links or Leven Links not be in the top 100 or next 100. That at a glance are the biggest surprises for me. 2 fabulous links courses in cracking settings, for me Leven is the best of the links in fife outwith St Andrews (old, new and jubilee) and Kingsbarns.

Both cracking courses.

But there are about 3000 or more courses in UK & Ireland, so they have to be in the top 3-5 percent to be in the top 100 or 200. And, as a reference comparison, I'm satisfied that these wouldn't be in the top couple of twenty nearby courses.

BTW. I'd rate Lundin ever so slightly higher than Leven, even with those 'non-links' holes.

 

[Iaing]

Can't say about Leven but totally agree about St. Anne's Old Links, a superb golf course and a strange omission from the lists.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

The whole ranking system is a load of bo**ox :ears:

 

[richart]

The whole ranking system is a load of bo**ox :ears:

I thought you were on a warning to be nice for the next two weeks.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

I thought you were on a warning to be nice for the next two weeks.

Oh......nobody told me about that, can it start tomorrow??

 

[Val]

Come on Val,really?

Leven? Really? Leven? Honestly?

Yes really Dodger, you'll be telling us its not a patch on Goswick likely

All joking aside, it's a better layout and challenge than many on it.

 

[Bomber69]

The whole ranking system is a load of bo**ox :ears:

Bomber likes this:thup:

 

[Imurg]

The whole ranking system is a load of bo**ox :ears:

Sarcastic or not, it's posts like this that are a load of ..........
Ok it's a public forum and opinions are vital but a lot of the posts in this thread simply display a basic Human trait...
My opinion is different so you're wrong.

This is GM's ranking. If they want to award a place to what many might consider to be a goat track then that is their right, in the same way that they can leave out a course they don.'t like the feel of they wish.

I said it in another thread - there really are a lot of toys on the floor over a list of courses..

Healthy debate - Yes
Arguments and abusiveness - why?