Theresa May - Not up to the Job of PM?

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So, is Jeremy Hunt as big a [insert suitable adjective] as he came across as on the telly this morning?

With a colleague like him who needs enemies...

I have just Emailed him again - he is my MP

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Assuming all that is true (which I don't) for arguments sake, just say you prove there was no plan, now what?

What more proof do you need other than the fact that May has had to get the cabinet together to review and agree a plan. If there was a plan it has not been very evident given that we have not yet entered discussions of the future trade deal and would have done so if the plan had existed. We know for a FACT that Barnier has been sitting waiting for the UK to tell him what we want. Were there a plan we'd have been in discussions with him.

There was never a plan. And you now know that that is the case. Leavers just need to get over the uncomfortable truth that you were deceived by the government into trusting that there was one.

And we can perhaps conclude that maybe the whole Leave rationale has been one big deceit - a giant lie wrapped up in nationalist ideas of sovereignty - with Leaving the EU no more than the obsession of a bunch of kamikaze Brextremists having little or no regard for the future of the country - and with no idea of the impact of leaving.

The problem for May is that her plan laid out the REALITY. And the likes of Davis, Fox, Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg deny 100% that reality.

 

[Foxholer]

Assuming all that is true (which I don't)...

Well, I DO believe it was true - though I'm pretty certain that those saying 'there is a plan' were really meaning 'there will be a plan aka there's a plan to make a plan!' which, imo, is classic politic-speak!

...just say you prove there was no plan, now what?

Totally agree with this sentiment!

There is absolutely no point arguing the toss about petty points like whether there was a plan or not! Cameron cerainly didn't have one. And when May replaced him, a plan - of sorts - was created. How well that 'plan' has worked out is another issue!

Now, back to the topic of this thread....May has a serious 'challenge' ahead of her - how to hold her party together, starting with Cabinet, over this issue! I'm not sure she's actually to it, though I certainly wish her well! Personally, I believe Davis was doing a pretty good job - though I may be giving him too much 'benefit of the doubt' over some serious issues/questions!

It's quite possibly time for a hard-liner, perhaps (like) Gove, to take over. Though, to me, he's one of the most detestable MPs - for a number of reasons!

 

[Deleted member 1418]

There was never a plan. And you now know that that is the case. Leavers just need to get over the uncomfortable truth that you were deceived by the government into trusting that there was one.

FFS - there has always been a 'plan', in fact there are a significant number of 'plans', put together by each Government Department affected by Brexit; and to reflect each element of the Brexit delivery process and each different scenario; whether that's at a UK level, i.e. the number of Bills that are needed going through Parliament, or in the negotiations with the European Commission.

I have been working on a number of these 'plans' for the last 2 years! Or have I been in a coma since then imagining it all!!

If you continue to believe differently then you should go and seek some professional help......or just take your head out of your backside. Although my money is on you doing neither and just keep on going on......and on.....and on.....and on.....and on.

 

[Foxholer]

FFS - there has always been a 'plan', in fact there are a significant number of 'plans', put together by each Government Department affected by Brexit;...

I have been working on a number of these 'plans' for the last 2 years! Or have I been in a coma since then imagining it all!!
...[/QUOTE
I'm inclined to SILH's view that there was never a plan - except to plan for a plan! - until it became obvious that there needed to be one!

And it was (a little over) 2 years ago that that need actually arose! That'll be the '2 years' since the Referendum voted Leave!

But, as I posted, what does it matter that there wasn't a plan in place at that time!

FWIW....When did you begin your active/detailed planning? As opposed to simply identifying the sorts of things (high level stuff) that would be needed in 'the plan'.

 

[User62651]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_npFEdZsE8:fore:

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Raab has got the gig...….pity it is not Rab.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

FFS - there has always been a 'plan', in fact there are a significant number of 'plans', put together by each Government Department affected by Brexit;...

I have been working on a number of these 'plans' for the last 2 years! Or have I been in a coma since then imagining it all!!
...[/QUOTE
I'm inclined to SILH's view that there was never a plan - except to plan for a plan! - until it became obvious that there needed to be one!

And it was (a little over) 2 years ago that that need actually arose! That'll be the '2 years' since the Referendum voted Leave!

But, as I posted, what does it matter that there wasn't a plan in place at that time!

FWIW....When did you begin your active/detailed planning? As opposed to simply identifying the sorts of things (high level stuff) that would be needed in 'the plan'.

Civil Service starts planning before any election/Referendum during the Purdah period, particularly where there are likely changes of Government or Ministers; so manifestos are considered against existing policies and therefore likely scenarios. Obviously a 'NO' vote at the Referendum would've meant no change.

The day after the Referendum result my department therefore started fleshing out what the 'YES' vote meant in more detail.

I state again that to say there was no 'plan' is incorrect.

But hey, believe what you will. I'm content with what I know.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Assuming all that is true (which I don't) for arguments sake, just say you prove there was no plan, now what?

It proves he’s right Bob, that we were all had over about the lack of a plan. I don’t remember the ballot paper saying anything about a plan, just whether I wanted to stay or go, so like you I’m quite happy that I wasn’t deceived at the ballot box, and you know he has to be right.

 

[bobmac]

I guess the ''now what'' part was missed.
We just get name calling instead

Kamikaze extremists

:rofl:

I'm out

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I guess the ''now what'' part was missed.
We just get name calling instead

Kamikaze extremists

:rofl:

I'm out

Complain to Dan Hodges of the Mail on Sunday for coining it...or at least starting to use it.

Besides - methinks you complain too much. I have ONLY used the term in exactly the same context as Dan Hodges - in respect of those MPs hell bent on the UK leaving the EU at whatever cost and no matter what. At no point have I even suggested that it might apply to any leave voters.

But if it suits a Leave agenda to choose to wilfully misunderstand so that accusations can be hurled - then hurl away.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

FFS - there has always been a 'plan', in fact there are a significant number of 'plans', put together by each Government Department affected by Brexit; and to reflect each element of the Brexit delivery process and each different scenario; whether that's at a UK level, i.e. the number of Bills that are needed going through Parliament, or in the negotiations with the European Commission.

I have been working on a number of these 'plans' for the last 2 years! Or have I been in a coma since then imagining it all!!

If you continue to believe differently then you should go and seek some professional help......or just take your head out of your backside. Although my money is on you doing neither and just keep on going on......and on.....and on.....and on.....and on.

I do not doubt that much detailed level work has been going on to try and sort out how on earth the UK will operate once out of the EU. Though pray tell how these Low level Plans can be fully defined when there has not been a High Level Plan - and given that the most recent Solution has just been rejected there is currently no High Level Plan.

In my industry you don't write the Low Level Design until the Solution Design Document has been signed off by the customer; at which point you write the High Level Design. You get that reviewed and signed off internally - and then present it to the customer for their review and sign-off. At the point you can move on to develop the Low Level Design. Much of the LLD can be done in advance given a fair understanding of what you are going to be doing - but you CANNOT finish it - and therefore CANNOT implement it unless you take a huge risk.

On Friday the Cabinet reviewed and approved the SDD and Davis was about to develop the HLD to share and discuss with the EU. But before we even got to that point key customers in the Tory Party have rejected the SDD - and it looks to be up in the air - we shall see how May holds the line on it.

So yes. I have no doubt that much Low Level design and planning has been ongoing. And much will apply on the basis that we leave the EU on 29th March and so planning for what that means can progress. But it cannot be completed and implemented without an approved solution and high level design unless a huge risk is take. And the UK parliament and electorate may not be willing to take that risk - and the only way we can know that would be for there to be a referendum on the leave deal agreed with the EU.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It proves he’s right Bob, that we were all had over about the lack of a plan. I don’t remember the ballot paper saying anything about a plan, just whether I wanted to stay or go, so like you I’m quite happy that I wasn’t deceived at the ballot box, and you know he has to be right.

There is much that the ballot paper did not say that many are now saying was clearly implied.

 

[drdel]

Civil Service starts planning before any election/Referendum during the Purdah period, particularly where there are likely changes of Government or Ministers; so manifestos are considered against existing policies and therefore likely scenarios. Obviously a 'NO' vote at the Referendum would've meant no change.

The day after the Referendum result my department therefore started fleshing out what the 'YES' vote meant in more detail.

I state again that to say there was no 'plan' is incorrect.

But hey, believe what you will. I'm content with what I know.

I agree and know the Government /Civil Service have been working hard on their plans and budget projection. For obvious reasons of confidentiality their work is not published.

So into the void the blinkered and myopic make up their own truths.

I'm sorry but you need to realise that there are many on here who have dug a trench so deep that they can't see over the top.

In their world the only truth is the one they believe/desired/constructed.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I agree and know the Government /Civil Service have been working hard on their plans and budget projection. For obvious reasons of confidentiality their work is not published.

So into the void the blinkered and myopic make up their own truths.

I'm sorry but you need to realise that there are many on here who have dug a trench so deep that they can't see over the top.

In their world the only truth is the one they believe/desired/constructed.

That somewhere over the rainbow there will be unicorns... ?

 

[Deleted member 1418]

I do not doubt that much detailed level work has been going on to try and sort out how on earth the UK will operate once out of the EU. Though pray tell how these Low level Plans can be fully defined when there has not been a High Level Plan - and given that the most recent Solution has just been rejected there is currently no High Level Plan.

In my industry you don't write the Low Level Design until the Solution Design Document has been signed off by the customer; at which point you write the High Level Design. You get that reviewed and signed off internally - and then present it to the customer for their review and sign-off. At the point you can move on to develop the Low Level Design. Much of the LLD can be done in advance given a fair understanding of what you are going to be doing - but you CANNOT finish it - and therefore CANNOT implement it unless you take a huge risk.

On Friday the Cabinet reviewed and approved the SDD and Davis was about to develop the HLD to share and discuss with the EU. But before we even got to that point key customers in the Tory Party have rejected the SDD - and it looks to be up in the air - we shall see how May holds the line on it.

So yes. I have no doubt that much Low Level design and planning has been ongoing. And much will apply on the basis that we leave the EU on 29th March and so planning for what that means can progress. But it cannot be completed and implemented without an approved solution and high level design unless a huge risk is take. And the UK parliament and electorate may not be willing to take that risk - and the only way we can know that would be for there to be a referendum on the leave deal agreed with the EU.

I'm a tad confused. So you are now accepting 'plans' have actually been made then with regard to our withdrawal from the EU? Because that's all what you've been banging on about - the lack of a 'plan'! The overarching 'plan' is to ensure the UK leaves the EU on the best possible terms possible, for ourselves and them - how that is achieved will always be subject to change as the negotiations continue; and will only be agreed (of that is indeed the case) late in the day - it always is with the EU.

And you say about a final sign off from the 'customer', well that's clearly the EU is it not? And to this date they have only been prepared to sign-off parts of the 'plan' (ie the IP).

And no, a further referendum is not needed. I believe that the electorate understood that there were risks in leaving the EU, but these were worth taking.

 

[MegaSteve]

Autumn election anyone?

I'd be amazed if there isn't...

 

[drdel]

I'm a tad confused. So you are now accepting 'plans' have actually been made then with regard to our withdrawal from the EU? Because that's all what you've been banging on about - the lack of a 'plan'! The overarching 'plan' is to ensure the UK leaves the EU on the best possible terms possible, for ourselves and them - how that is achieved will always be subject to change as the negotiations continue; and will only be agreed (of that is indeed the case) late in the day - it always is with the EU.

And you say about a final sign off from the 'customer', well that's clearly the EU is it not? And to this date they have only been prepared to sign-off parts of the 'plan' (ie the IP).

And no, a further referendum is not needed. I believe that the electorate understood that there were risks in leaving the EU, but these were worth taking.

Oh dear more sensible comments - I've told you before logic and reasoning 'butter no carrots' here!!!

 

[Old Skier]

I guess the ''now what'' part was missed.
We just get name calling instead

Kamikaze extremists

:rofl:

I'm out

SILH way, and then he blames it on a quote from someone else. Insulting individual who hasn't the courage to acknowledge his posts.

 

[Foxholer]

That somewhere over the rainbow there will be unicorns... ?

Well, that's what 'the electorate' voted for!

Don't blame May for that! Nor Cameron, though his 'campaign' was pretty pathetic and he fell on his sword very soon after the result was confirmed!

It does, however, seem that 'democracy' may not be well served or may even bypassed as it has too often in the past imo. The Government is likely to be too frightened of getting a 'bad' result if either Parliament of (perish the thought) 'The Electorate' gets a vote on the final deal!