Theresa May - Not up to the Job of PM?

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't think you're far wrong in questioning May's motives. We've heard time and again that if there's a need in the UK for people with certain skills they will be allowed in, yet over 400 doctors have been refused entry. Its not difficult to draw a conclusion.

I hope I am wrong...

 

[Mudball]

I don't think you're far wrong in questioning May's motives. We've heard time and again that if there's a need in the UK for people with certain skills they will be allowed in, yet over 400 doctors have been refused entry. Its not difficult to draw a conclusion.

Skills based immigration is an interesting concept. Refusing visas for qualified medical staff is absolutely bonkers given the pressure on NHS and an aging population. If you refuse visas for tech jobs, the jobs can move overseas easily without waiting for govt approvals. Same with Finance folks.

The more unfortunate side of the coin is the lack of funding for 'native' people. We are not training enough Doctors, Midwifes, Dentist, IT, Finance folks. So we are not getting any home grown folks nor are we getting immigrants fill those jobs.. So the question is who are going to do these job??

Maybe, only when a Tory goes thru the wringer will they know.... as someone mentioned it on Twitter today..

Sajid Javid today continues a proud Tory tradition of only being able to feel empathy if they or someone they know is directly affected....

 

[SocketRocket]

Skills based immigration is an interesting concept. Refusing visas for qualified medical staff is absolutely bonkers given the pressure on NHS and an aging population. If you refuse visas for tech jobs, the jobs can move overseas easily without waiting for govt approvals. Same with Finance folks.

The more unfortunate side of the coin is the lack of funding for 'native' people. We are not training enough Doctors, Midwifes, Dentist, IT, Finance folks. So we are not getting any home grown folks nor are we getting immigrants fill those jobs.. So the question is who are going to do these job??

Maybe, only when a Tory goes thru the wringer will they know.... as someone mentioned it on Twitter today..

Sajid Javid today continues a proud Tory tradition of only being able to feel empathy if they or someone they know is directly affected....

You, like so many others want to put sole blame for our overstretched services on 'the aging population' Do you not agree that the problem is wider than this? The real problem is population growth whereby an aging population is only a constituent part, high immigration and birthrates are also factors that contribute to our stressed public services. Giving visas to foreign medical staff from poorer countries is immoral IMO and should stop, also allowing our trained medical staff to work privately or abroad before working off the investment the tax payer has invested is also wrong.

 

[Mudball]

You, like so many others want to put sole blame for our overstretched services on 'the aging population' Do you not agree that the problem is wider than this? The real problem is population growth whereby an aging population is only a constituent part, high immigration and birthrates are also factors that contribute to our stressed public services. Giving visas to foreign medical staff from poorer countries is immoral IMO and should stop, also allowing our trained medical staff to work privately or abroad before working off the investment the tax payer has invested is also wrong.

Dear SR... I dont think I said that.. if you re-read my statement 'absolutely bonkers given the pressure on NHS and an aging population', i understand that the pressure on NHS is not solely down to aging population. However it is a fact that people in the UK are living longer. This is a good thing but it also needs the NHS to adapt to it. Immigration and Birth rates will contribute too. You will be accused of thinking like a TM if you expect a highly skilled Doctor to come here but not bring or start a family.

 

[Mudball]

You, like so many others want to put sole blame for our overstretched services on 'the aging population' Do you not agree that the problem is wider than this? The real problem is population growth whereby an aging population is only a constituent part, high immigration and birthrates are also factors that contribute to our stressed public services. Giving visas to foreign medical staff from poorer countries is immoral IMO and should stop, also allowing our trained medical staff to work privately or abroad before working off the investment the tax payer has invested is also wrong.

I partially agree with the moral part. I think Indian Drs should first attend to patients in India. But let me give some context to this. Indian professional education section is two tiered.
1) Govt aided College/Univ- this is where tax payers money goes to subside e.g. Student pay a small fee but a large part is funded by Govt subsidy. There are many of these dotted around the country and competition to join them is fierce and there is prestige in joining them .
2) Private funded College/Univ - The demand for doctors cannot be filled by the number of places available by the State, so private college are allowed and they follow the same curriculum and students are subject to same or similar exams. As these are not subsidised, the fees are significant and not everyone can afford it

Generally, those (Dr/Dentists/Nurses etc) who attend Govt aided college have to sign a 'bond' in lieu of their subsidy wherein they have to work in a Govt hospital or post for a certain period of time. Some of these postings are to remote/rural locations. This is the only way the govt can get some of these skills into areas that most people dont want to go as it is not economically viable for them. While not economically viable, the junior doctors get invaluable experience. You can buy out the bonds but that is a different matter.

Generally, the Doctors who are applying for highly skilled categories are generally the other end of the spectrum. They would be 'mid-tier' in the sense they are not senior enough to be immovable and no longer junior enough. They would have done the rounds and moved away from Govt practice into private practice. In many ways they moving out of the country opens up opportunities for the fresh crop to come in.

Joining the NHS for non-EU nationals is not easy either. They do have to requalify even though they would have been top of their game in India. The GMC and GDC set the exams at par (some argue tougher). As these exams are held at particular times, it takes some of them couple of years between thinking of moving to actually moving

So when TM decides that she does not want to grant visas to highly skilled Doctors, she is spurring someone who is very qualified, has a desire to move, has a job offer and is desperately needed - all because she wants to meet an arbitrary target

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I partially agree with the moral part. I think Indian Drs should first attend to patients in India. But let me give some context to this. Indian professional education section is two tiered.
1) Govt aided College/Univ- this is where tax payers money goes to subside e.g. Student pay a small fee but a large part is funded by Govt subsidy. There are many of these dotted around the country and competition to join them is fierce and there is prestige in joining them .
2) Private funded College/Univ - The demand for doctors cannot be filled by the number of places available by the State, so private college are allowed and they follow the same curriculum and students are subject to same or similar exams. As these are not subsidised, the fees are significant and not everyone can afford it

Generally, those (Dr/Dentists/Nurses etc) who attend Govt aided college have to sign a 'bond' in lieu of their subsidy wherein they have to work in a Govt hospital or post for a certain period of time. Some of these postings are to remote/rural locations. This is the only way the govt can get some of these skills into areas that most people dont want to go as it is not economically viable for them. While not economically viable, the junior doctors get invaluable experience. You can buy out the bonds but that is a different matter.

Generally, the Doctors who are applying for highly skilled categories are generally the other end of the spectrum. They would be 'mid-tier' in the sense they are not senior enough to be immovable and no longer junior enough. They would have done the rounds and moved away from Govt practice into private practice. In many ways they moving out of the country opens up opportunities for the fresh crop to come in.

Joining the NHS for non-EU nationals is not easy either. They do have to requalify even though they would have been top of their game in India. The GMC and GDC set the exams at par (some argue tougher). As these exams are held at particular times, it takes some of them couple of years between thinking of moving to actually moving

So when TM decides that she does not want to grant visas to highly skilled Doctors, she is spurring someone who is very qualified, has a desire to move, has a job offer and is desperately needed - all because she wants to meet an arbitrary target

Interesting piece of background - thankyou

 

[hors limite]

Watched Sajid Javid on Andrew Marr. He answered the questions, even the awkward ones, showed an ability to think on his feet and didn't say "let me be clear" once. The first PM from an Asian background?

 

[Hobbit]

Watched Sajid Javid on Andrew Marr. He answered the questions, even the awkward ones, showed an ability to think on his feet and didn't say "let me be clear" once. The first PM from an Asian background?

Thought he was excellent, but maybe too honest for a Tory.

 

[IanM]

I partially agree with the moral part. I think Indian Drs should first attend to patients in India. But let me give some context to this. Indian professional education section is two tiered.
1) Govt aided College/Univ- this is where tax payers money goes to subside e.g. Student pay a small fee but a large part is funded by Govt subsidy. There are many of these dotted around the country and competition to join them is fierce and there is prestige in joining them .
2) Private funded College/Univ - The demand for doctors cannot be filled by the number of places available by the State, so private college are allowed and they follow the same curriculum and students are subject to same or similar exams. As these are not subsidised, the fees are significant and not everyone can afford it

Generally, those (Dr/Dentists/Nurses etc) who attend Govt aided college have to sign a 'bond' in lieu of their subsidy wherein they have to work in a Govt hospital or post for a certain period of time. Some of these postings are to remote/rural locations. This is the only way the govt can get some of these skills into areas that most people dont want to go as it is not economically viable for them. While not economically viable, the junior doctors get invaluable experience. You can buy out the bonds but that is a different matter.

Generally, the Doctors who are applying for highly skilled categories are generally the other end of the spectrum. They would be 'mid-tier' in the sense they are not senior enough to be immovable and no longer junior enough. They would have done the rounds and moved away from Govt practice into private practice. In many ways they moving out of the country opens up opportunities for the fresh crop to come in.

Joining the NHS for non-EU nationals is not easy either. They do have to requalify even though they would have been top of their game in India. The GMC and GDC set the exams at par (some argue tougher). As these exams are held at particular times, it takes some of them couple of years between thinking of moving to actually moving

So when TM decides that she does not want to grant visas to highly skilled Doctors, she is spurring someone who is very qualified, has a desire to move, has a job offer and is desperately needed - all because she wants to meet an arbitrary target

Good points ... one thing I do not get is why my neighbour's daughter had to wait 2 years to get into Cardiff to do medicine as "they had filled their UK quota." Are we short of docs or not? (or is that about fees?)

 

[User62651]

Might just be me but May seems conspicuous by her absence currently.

Seeing and hearing little from her in the news and media, at this important time I think we need stronger leadership. Less we hear from her and as she rolls out her ministers (often with contradicting views) to do media and tv shows the more I think the job is beyond her.

Feels like there is more overt manouevering for her job going on recently and she can't nip it in the bud. Weak and wobbly is prevailing over strong and stable currently.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Good points ... one thing I do not get is why my neighbour's daughter had to wait 2 years to get into Cardiff to do medicine as "they had filled their UK quota." Are we short of docs or not? (or is that about fees?)

My son is doing his A levels now and also has friends a year or two older. This is a comment I have heard before from his friends parents. It is anecdotal stuff but it does seem odd that kids with 3 x A* grades, either they have or are projected to get, are not getting a place in medical school because the numbers are full at the places he applied to. You hear similar stories about nurses. Things don't seem to add up at times, very strange.

 

[Mudball]

Good points ... one thing I do not get is why my neighbour's daughter had to wait 2 years to get into Cardiff to do medicine as "they had filled their UK quota." Are we short of docs or not? (or is that about fees?)

My son is doing his A levels now and also has friends a year or two older. This is a comment I have heard before from his friends parents. It is anecdotal stuff but it does seem odd that kids with 3 x A* grades, either they have or are projected to get, are not getting a place in medical school because the numbers are full at the places he applied to. You hear similar stories about nurses. Things don't seem to add up at times, very strange.

I did not know that they had a UK quota for Cardiff.. As per their FOI request they take a max of 7.5% of international students.
This is an interesting FOI request >> https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/medical_school_admission_interna_8

Overall, I hear anecdotally that the number of Drs & Nurses graduates we churn out are insufficient for the system we have. Also folks leave for prviate or consultant pratices after some time. So we are not able to fulfil our needs from the UK schools. They were due to get more seats (but that is in 10s rather than 100s). Funding is an issue.

 

[Hobbit]

Might just be me but May seems conspicuous by her absence currently.

Seeing and hearing little from her in the news and media, at this important time I think we need stronger leadership. Less we hear from her and as she rolls out her ministers (often with contradicting views) to do media and tv shows the more I think the job is beyond her.

Feels like there is more overt manouevering for her job going on recently and she can't nip it in the bud. Weak and wobbly is prevailing over strong and stable currently.

:thup:

Please can we either have a leadership change or a GE! The country feels like it’s drifting along, almost rudderless.

 

[Slime]

:thup:

Please can we either have a leadership change or a GE! The country feels like it’s drifting along, almost rudderless.

Does it?

 

[Foxholer]

:thup:

Please can we either have a leadership change or a GE! The country feels like it’s drifting along, almost rudderless.

Well, it would do when your PM has just lost a vote of no confidence!

You may have a UK Passport, but, I believe, you have abandoned your heritage in favour of your 'new' state!

As for UK, there's nothing wrong with the external concept of 'rudderless'! It's actually a case of (mid-term) apathy! The only real current issue is Brexit, which most of the electorate is pretty bored with! Until some sort of terrorist event happens (and I pray it doesn't!) then apathy rules!

 

[Hobbit]

Well, it would do when your PM has just lost a vote of no confidence!

You may have a UK Passport, but, I believe, you have abandoned your heritage in favour of your 'new' state!

As for UK, there's nothing wrong with the external concept of 'rudderless'! It's actually a case of (mid-term) apathy! The only real current issue is Brexit, which most of the electorate is pretty bored with! Until some sort of terrorist event happens (and I pray it doesn't!) then apathy rules!

i believe you are a gypsey too.

*typed from a grey Manchester *

 

[Mudball]

Well, it would do when your PM has just lost a vote of no confidence!

You may have a UK Passport, but, I believe, you have abandoned your heritage in favour of your 'new' state!

As for UK, there's nothing wrong with the external concept of 'rudderless'! It's actually a case of (mid-term) apathy! The only real current issue is Brexit, which most of the electorate is pretty bored with! Until some sort of terrorist event happens (and I pray it doesn't!) then apathy rules!

Don’t worry .. (yet) another rail fiasco and the Heathrow runway omnishambles will provide plenty of distraction ..

 

[Hacker Khan]

Might just be me but May seems conspicuous by her absence currently.

Seeing and hearing little from her in the news and media, at this important time I think we need stronger leadership. Less we hear from her and as she rolls out her ministers (often with contradicting views) to do media and tv shows the more I think the job is beyond her.

Feels like there is more overt manouevering for her job going on recently and she can't nip it in the bud. Weak and wobbly is prevailing over strong and stable currently.

Whilst I think she is pretty poor as well, I am increasingly feeling sorry for her in the position she is in. She is trying to put together a Brexit that she does not overly believe in it and it seems a majority of parliament (including the HOL) do not seem to really want to go ahead with it either. Whatever happens it will have to be a big compromise that will not please either side of the argument.

To be honest the cabinet is full of ministers desperate to have ultimate power and they are more than willing to put that before the the good of the country at times to achieve it. And I imagine the same would be true of the other parties if they were in power, it just seems to be the type of people that we get in those positions nowadays.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

To be honest the cabinet is full of ministers desperate to have ultimate power and they are more than willing to put that before the the good of the country at times to achieve it. And I imagine the same would be true of the other parties if they were in power, it just seems to be the type of people that we get in those positions nowadays.

That's what we get when all major parties in this country are dominated by "Career Politicians" and that has, sadly, been the case for a number of years.

I find it an interesting (and depressing) exercise to research into our politicians' backgrounds and see how very few of them have any meaningful work/career experience prior to entering politics.

Long gone are the days when it was a vocation rather than personal advancement.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

David Davis resigning tomorrow.....according to STV.