The SNIP

[drdel]

Well Denmark is a very highly taxed society, so if you want to be like Denmark, then you will have to pay for it.

No doubt that Ireland is doing well, and no doubt that a lot of that is down to European assistance and it’s low corporation tax

However now that the EU are losing one of their few net contributors, there isn’t going to be as much money around.
last thing they would want is another country with its hand out.

Denmark and Ireland have well established economies, Scotland will be starting from scratch.

I’m not saying it cannot be done, but I think simply comparing Scotland to other countries of similar size/ population is a bit simplistic

I pretty much agree. The EU has only kept growth artificially positive by very high levels of QE from the ECB: it must start living within its means. With Germany now struggling and other EU members experiencing low or no growth it would be unwise for Scotland to put much reliance on the EU's financial aid. Ireland was lucky as at the time of their referendum the EU was splashing the cash in its direction - its a very different economic scenario to today's world economy being twisted by China needing to grow to sustain its population. If I was the SNP I'd be trying to consolidate Scotland's economy and bide their time to see if the PM can get growth which might also help Scotland sell more stuff.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Well Denmark is a very highly taxed society, so if you want to be like Denmark, then you will have to pay for it.

No doubt that Ireland is doing well, and no doubt that a lot of that is down to European assistance and it’s low corporation tax

However now that the EU are losing one of their few net contributors, there isn’t going to be as much money around.
last thing they would want is another country with its hand out.

Denmark and Ireland have well established economies, Scotland will be starting from scratch.

I’m not saying it cannot be done, but I think simply comparing Scotland to other countries of similar size/ population is a bit simplistic

You mean like saying that the UK can be like Singapore...?

 

[PhilTheFragger]

You mean like saying that the UK can be like Singapore...?

That’s not what I said, and you know it, now stop deflecting, because if you are deflecting it means that you haven’t got any ammo left and are losing the debate, let’s have some ideas or suggestions as to why I’m wrong.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That’s not what I said, and you know it, now stop deflecting, because if you are deflecting it means that you haven’t got any ammo left and are losing the debate, let’s have some ideas or suggestions as to why I’m wrong.

I am not actually debating anything so can't be out of ammo or losing any such debate. I am simply saying that if it is too simplistic to compare Scotland with Denmark - then it is surely also too simplistic to compare UK with Singapore - but that comparison is a favourite of the ERGers - as the UK becomes the 'Freeport Central' of Europe.

Strikes me that there are massive double standards going on in the 'Can Scotland Survive being Independent' debate, when pretty much the similar criticisms, issues and concerns raised about UK leaving the EU were waved aside by Leavers during the Brexit Debate (and continue to be waved aside) as Project fear - nobody can predict the future. Yes there are differences - currency perhaps being the main one - but the rest are pretty similar.

I've pretty much kept out of this debate here as the ability of forummers to predict Scotland's future as an indy country as being dire is frankly staggering - and I have no answer to their foresight abilities and certainly - and so I can't be bothered.

 

[toyboy54]

drdel well thought out comments with a lot of factual info.
Was given some truly 'what the ..ck are these charlatans in govt.are doing to drag us further down in the 'easy touch/walk all over them-its only the UK-nothing to worry about-scenario which has happened in the Middle East at our annual booze-up last night!
Can thank the lord that I'm practising hard to finish my 18holes and spend the rest of my time in the great clubhouse with this shower doing their best to ruin this countrys' manufacturing base
Rant over.But the info-from a v.g. source was truly jaw-dropping...will tell you soon(after I've learned to use the Sony Walkman NW-A45 that Mrs.Santa brought me)
Jimbo

 

[Hobbit]

A couple of quick questions;

Why will Scotland be starting from scratch? It has a local govt structure, which collects and spends local taxes. It has its own income tax structure - thoroughly enjoyed that! It has devolved powers for education, NHS and Police.

Why can't the UK be the Freeport of Europe? Why is it a problem to change the tax structure, (as Ireland did in a big way)?

 

[drdel]

I am not actually debating anything so can't be out of ammo or losing any such debate. I am simply saying that if it is too simplistic to compare Scotland with Denmark - then it is surely also too simplistic to compare UK with Singapore - but that comparison is a favourite of the ERGers - as the UK becomes the 'Freeport Central' of Europe.

Strikes me that there are massive double standards going (1) on in the 'Can Scotland Survive being Independent' debate, when pretty much the similar criticisms, issues and concerns raised about UK leaving the EU were waved aside by Leavers during the Brexit Debate (and continue to be waved aside) as Project fear - nobody can predict the future (2). Yes there are differences - currency perhaps being the main one - but the rest are pretty similar.

I've pretty much kept out of this debate here as the ability of forummers to predict Scotland's future as an indy country as being dire is frankly staggering (3) - and I have no answer to their foresight abilities and certainly - and so I can't be bothered (4).

1. Completely and utterly different scenarios - 5m Scots with GDP £180bn to join EU £15trill with Scotland'sneed for subsidies and EU finances shaky. UK is one of the world's top 10 largest economies at £2.2 trillion c.f. Singapore and Denmark both about £320m
2. But there are some robust economics variables with trends that can give a pretty good indications within sensible margins or error.
3. Belonging to a Golf Forum and having both an opinion AND some economic savvy are not mutually exclusive but feel free to insult your fellow members.
4. So it seems somewhat irrational to have bothered posting.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

A couple of quick questions;

Why will Scotland be starting from scratch? It has a local govt structure, which collects and spends local taxes. It has its own income tax structure - thoroughly enjoyed that! It has devolved powers for education, NHS and Police.

Why can't the UK be the Freeport of Europe? Why is it a problem to change the tax structure, (as Ireland did in a big way)?

This also begs the question, why is Scotland so 'poor' [compared to the UK as a whole] within a structure that is controlled by the UK Chancellor.
In a breakdown of UK 'regions' Scotland wealth is behind London and SE England, compares with East England and ahead of all the other UK regions.
Puzzling.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

1. Completely and utterly different scenarios - 5m Scots with GDP £180bn to join EU £15trill with Scotland'sneed for subsidies and EU finances shaky. UK is one of the world's top 10 largest economies at £2.2 trillion c.f. Singapore and Denmark both about £320m
2. But there are some robust economics variables with trends that can give a pretty good indications within sensible margins or error.
3. Belonging to a Golf Forum and having both an opinion AND some economic savvy are not mutually exclusive but feel free to insult your fellow members.
4. So it seems somewhat irrational to have bothered posting.

What of what I posted is insulting to others. I simply stated that I perceived double standards being applied to Scotland leaving the UK and the UK leaving the EU. And from what I have read I am not alone in thinking that.

 

[Hobbit]

What of what I posted is insulting to others. I simply stated that I perceived double standards being applied to Scotland leaving the UK and the UK leaving the EU. And from what I have read I am not alone in thinking that.

Are you a Remain voter, against Independence, for the very same reasons you often put forward opposing Brexit?

 

[drdel]

This also begs the question, why is Scotland so 'poor' [compared to the UK as a whole] within a structure that is controlled by the UK Chancellor.
In a breakdown of UK 'regions' Scotland wealth is behind London and SE England, compares with East England and ahead of all the other UK regions.
Puzzling.

Population density, business density and distances to market might figure...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Are you a Remain voter, against Independence, for the very same reasons you often put forward opposing Brexit?

That we are better in the EU than out? As I don’t live in Scotland and haven’t done so for 35yrs I don’t know as far as Scotland is concerned. If I did then I might have a better idea - and I’d have a vote.

 

[Hobbit]

That we are better in the EU than out? As I don’t live in Scotland and haven’t done so for 35yrs I don’t know as far as Scotland is concerned. If I did then I might have a better idea - and I’d have a vote.

I might be inclined to think you're avoiding the question, or maybe not... you're too intelligent not to recognise the similarities with who Scotland's biggest trading partner is and who the UK's biggest trading partner is. You've argued long and hard about the damage losing unrestricted access to trade is. Does that argument not apply in this case?

I'm not arguing for or against. I feel its for Scotland to choose its own destiny.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Population density, business density and distances to market might figure...

Which then begs the question
Why is UK population and business density so strong in SE England.

 

[Wolf]

Which then begs the question
Why is UK population and business density so strong in SE England.

It really doesn't beg that question at all.

 

[Hobbit]

It really doesn't beg that question at all.

Actually, it does beg the question. And its a very searching question too. I'd also hazard a guess that there's similarities with why the NE of England voted so heavily in favour of Brexit.

London and the SE of England is the richest region in Europe, not just the UK. It outstrips the various wealthy areas of both Germany and France.

Imagine if that wealth had been evenly distributed around the UK. Would Brexit have happened? Would independence be an issue?

Sounds pretty simialr to me, and definitely a question worth asking.

 

[Wolf]

Actually, it does beg the question. And its a very searching question too. I'd also hazard a guess that there's similarities with why the NE of England voted so heavily in favour of Brexit.

London and the SE of England is the richest region in Europe, not just the UK. It outstrips the various wealthy areas of both Germany and France.

Imagine if that wealth had been evenly distributed around the UK. Would Brexit have happened? Would independence be an issue?

Sounds pretty simialr to me, and definitely a question worth asking.

I don't think its a similar question at all. The reason the population is so dense and wealthier in SE and London is quit obvious for all to see especially having lived and grown up there.

The question of whether that wealth should be more evenly spread across the UK andnehy northern areas were so keen to leave the EU are different questions imo.

 

[Hobbit]

I don't think its a similar question at all. The reason the population is so dense and wealthier in SE and London is quit obvious for all to see especially having lived and grown up there.

The question of whether that wealth should be more evenly spread across the UK andnehy northern areas were so keen to leave the EU are different questions imo.

Isn't it a chicken and egg thing with the SE? People move to where the jobs are, where the wealth is, and trickle down economics sees those people spending their money in that area. As the population density increases so does the govt spending in that area on infrastructure. And companies seeing improvements in infrastructure and a large workforce look to move there.

And what real investment and investment has there been in areas that actually needed it the most?

A survey the EU did on regional spending gives a feel for why northerners and Scots feel let down by successive govts. Scotland is right to feel aggrieved and, potentially, has a way out from under the rule of successive govts that can't see beyond the M25.

 

[Wolf]

Isn't it a chicken and egg thing with the SE? People move to where the jobs are, where the wealth is, and trickle down economics sees those people spending their money in that area. As the population density increases so does the govt spending in that area on infrastructure. And companies seeing improvements in infrastructure and a large workforce look to move there.

And what real investment and investment has there been in areas that actually needed it the most?

A survey the EU did on regional spending gives a feel for why northerners and Scots feel let down by successive govts. Scotland is right to feel aggrieved and, potentially, has a way out from under the rule of successive govts that can't see beyond the M25.

I don't disagree with you on those points but I stand by my comment of thise are different issues to what Doon was referencing.

I think government does need to spend beyond the M25, im also pro the Scots deciding their own fate.

 

[toyboy54]

I don't disagree with you on those points but I stand by my comment of thise are different issues to what Doon was referencing.

I think government does need to spend beyond the M25, im also pro the Scots deciding their own fate.

Sorry about my going off on one last night but I had learned at our night out just how much our beloved leaders actually care for not only manufacturing(and assoc.supply chain )jobs in our 'For Sale-at any price ' country.But also what a sham Trade Delegations going abroad to allegedly drum up inward investment and possible joint ventures for alternative engineering ECO Products actually are!!!!
So much for unlocking the potential to be a world leader again in science,engineering and the environment.
Big article in the press today about hiving/selling off oncology and other services to PRIVATE COS.(some talks are at advanced stage).Is this another promise shelved??
No wonder folk don't trust politicians(the lot up here are no better either)!

Jimbo