The SNIP

[Doon frae Troon]

I don't think its a similar question at all. The reason the population is so dense and wealthier in SE and London is quit obvious for all to see especially having lived and grown up there.

The question of whether that wealth should be more evenly spread across the UK andnehy northern areas were so keen to leave the EU are different questions imo.

It might be obvious to you but it is not obvious to me.
Scottish people paying for infrasctructure improvements to the richest region in Europe makes no sense to me.
Please explain how Crossrail and HS2 will help the average Dundee citizen.

 

[chrisd]

It might be obvious to you but it is not obvious to me.
Scottish people paying for infrasctructure improvements to the richest region in Europe makes no sense to me.
Please explain how Crossrail and HS2 will help the average Dundee citizen.

Please explain why any Government would currently agree infrastructure spending in Dundee when in a few months time they might leave the Union?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I might be inclined to think you're avoiding the question, or maybe not... you're too intelligent not to recognise the similarities with who Scotland's biggest trading partner is and who the UK's biggest trading partner is. You've argued long and hard about the damage losing unrestricted access to trade is. Does that argument not apply in this case?

I'm not arguing for or against. I feel its for Scotland to choose its own destiny.

And as I don’t live in Scotland and have not done so for decades then I have no feel for how things are and have been - and so I don’t feel particularly qualified to comment on how much better they could be or not.

The only indicators of whether independence is felt to be realistic or not is what I hear from my very pro-Indy brother - a senior oil industry professional, and a successful professional friend originally from Barrhead and after nearly 40yrs out of Scotland recently moved to Haddington - a Tory and previously anti-Indy - but when we spoke last year said he now was much more inclined towards the idea but still had to be convinced on the numbers.

The one thing I feel certain about is that the Scottish electorate should be given the choice sooner rather than later.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Please explain why any Government would currently agree infrastructure spending in Dundee when in a few months time they might leave the Union?

That is the problem the UK government does not fund Scottish projects like Borders railway, A9 dualing, Queensferry Crossing etc
They are funded by the proportion of our own money that Westminster deems to send up.
BTW you did not answer my question.

 

[KenL]

People in Scotland were given the vote 5 years ago and there was a very clear outcome to remain.

For me, people up here don't know how lucky they are! Look at the advantages over rUK, free prescriptions, eyetests, dental check ups, free bus travel anywhere in the country for everybody who is 60), free university education, power to raise taxes for average earners etc.

How anyone thinks things would be better as an independent country is beyond me.

The only thing about living in Scotland I don't like is having to living with the stress of the constant banging on by the SNP about independence!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Actually, it does beg the question. And its a very searching question too. I'd also hazard a guess that there's similarities with why the NE of England voted so heavily in favour of Brexit.

London and the SE of England is the richest region in Europe, not just the UK. It outstrips the various wealthy areas of both Germany and France.

Imagine if that wealth had been evenly distributed around the UK. Would Brexit have happened? Would independence be an issue?

Sounds pretty simialr to me, and definitely a question worth asking.

I was yesterday reading an article about Bolsover - now a Tory seat, as it is next to Chesterfield where my wife is from; how the main (pretty much only) industrial investment in the area since the coal industry collapsed was a Sports Direct distribution centre; and how without the coal board pension scheme the economy of the area would completely collapse. And speaking with my wife about that we reflected on the difference between Bolsover/chesterfield and Farnham/Guildford areas. And the differences are massive - so great that if you did not k ow both areas you might not believe the differences.

Indeed yesterday my daughter talked about a friend she made at uni. He was from Clay Cross and seemed to be the first from his secondary school and all families he knows to have gone to university - well that’s what he told my daughter and why would he not be telling the truth. He is now a fully qualified accountant and working in Thailand teaching. His Facebook page is full of posts from his Clay Cross friends young and old telling him how proud they all are of what he’s achieved coming from CC - going to uni and now being a trained accountant and teaching. Safe to say my daughter was not the first from her very high achieving surrey state secondary school to have gone to uni.

You might not believe such disparity in opportunity, expectation and ambition could exist between towns less that 200miles apart but it absolutely does.

 

[Wolf]

It might be obvious to you but it is not obvious to me.
Scottish people paying for infrasctructure improvements to the richest region in Europe makes no sense to me.
Please explain how Crossrail and HS2 will help the average Dundee citizen.

Quite simple to understand why its obvious considering its the hub of UK business, banking and has the largest transport links for businesses to the continent via sea, rail and air.

As for Scottish people paying for it, welcome to paying taxes and government choosing how spend that money. Whilst I agree more should go elsewhere in the country, I still like anyone from any union state have to pay it like you do, doesn't mean we have to like it.

As for your point on HS2 & Cross rail thats purely semantics, anyone (I include scottish citizens in that) could equally ask why should pay to improve the A38, Highland railway or the many other current transport improvements in various Scottish regions. That they equally won't use, just like improving roads and rail links in other areas of England has no impact on me. HS2 imo is a waste of money but im sure there will be many that use it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And so we think back to 1977 following an upsurge in support for the SNP and the demolition of St Enoch station and hotel to make way for new offices for the MoD - but the planned 6000 jobs moved from London didn’t happen because the MoD peeps didn’t want to move to Glasgow. And other than 1400 largely admin jobs moving that was that. The high value jobs didn’t move to Scotland because the people didn’t want to move.

 

[Wolf]

And so we think back to 1977 following an upsurge in support for the SNP and the demolition of St Enoch station and hotel to make way for new offices for the MoD - but the planned 6000 jobs moved from London didn’t happen because the MoD peeps didn’t want to move to Glasgow. And other than 1400 largely admin jobs moving that was that. The high value jobs didn’t move to Scotland because the people didn’t want to move.

I've read this post 3 times and still see its only relevance as adding another number to your post count..

I pretty sure nobody is looking back to that event and seeing any relevance of it towards the thread title or current discussions being had within it. Plus the fact a move like that in the 70s would have been pointless due to communication infrastructure of the time.

 

[drdel]

And so we think back to 1977 following an upsurge in support for the SNP and the demolition of St Enoch station and hotel to make way for new offices for the MoD - but the planned 6000 jobs moved from London didn’t happen because the MoD peeps didn’t want to move to Glasgow. And other than 1400 largely admin jobs moving that was that. The high value jobs didn’t move to Scotland because the people didn’t want to move.

Had that decision been made today you'd be on here asking why the MoD's annual transport cost etc. for staff etc were so high!

Demographics evolve as people use their freedom to move to places where the want to live and work: its not surprising that transport infrastructure follows demand.

 

[chrisd]

BTW you did not answer my question.

Can't be arsed to ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I've read this post 3 times and still see its only relevance as adding another number to your post count..

I pretty sure nobody is looking back to that event and seeing any relevance of it towards the thread title or current discussions being had within it. Plus the fact a move like that in the 70s would have been pointless due to communication infrastructure of the time.

The observation is in respect of the discussion about the concentration of a lot of high value jobs being in the south east of England; that there can be intent and good words about moving high value jobs out of the south east - but good intent means nothing without action. If the business or the people do not want to move then little will happen without total government commitment and support. Let's see if Johnson and his crew have that - because if they do not want to lose Scotland from the Union then I suggest that the government has to demonstrate significant and sustained commitment to Scotland.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Quite simple to understand why its obvious considering its the hub of UK business, banking and has the largest transport links for businesses to the continent via sea, rail and air.

As for Scottish people paying for it, welcome to paying taxes and government choosing how spend that money. Whilst I agree more should go elsewhere in the country, I still like anyone from any union state have to pay it like you do, doesn't mean we have to like it.

As for your point on HS2 & Cross rail thats purely semantics, anyone (I include scottish citizens in that) could equally ask why should pay to improve the A38, Highland railway or the many other current transport improvements in various Scottish regions. That they equally won't use, just like improving roads and rail links in other areas of England has no impact on me. HS2 imo is a waste of money but im sure there will be many that use it.

I am asking how it became the hub.
What decisions were made to make it so.

Have a look at the London Skyline before they found oil in Scotland's waters and now, Purely coincidence

 

[Dando]

I am asking how it became the hub.
What decisions were made to make it so.

Have a look at the London Skyline before they found oil in Scotland's waters and now, Purely coincidence

so all the new office blocks have been funded by Oil money?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Had that decision been made today you'd be on here asking why the MoD's annual transport cost etc. for staff etc were so high!

Not if the jobs were in Scotland and the employees lived in Scotland? I think when Thatcher's government had the MoD move planned that they had taken into account any associated travel costs. Besides - 1977 the oil was beginning to flow so the Westminster government knew it would have loads of new cash to splash for decades to come.

 

[chrisd]

The observation is in respect of the discussion about the concentration of a lot of high value jobs being in the south east of England; that there can be intent and good words about moving high value jobs out of the south east - but good intent means nothing without action. If the business or the people do not want to move then little will happen without total government commitment and support. Let's see if Johnson and his crew have that - because if they do not want to lose Scotland from the Union then I suggest that the government has to demonstrate significant and sustained commitment to Scotland.

If you were Boris and you had a choice where to commit and support to away from the SE, would you go northern England where you have just picked up only dreamt of seats, or to Scotland where the ruling party are going to cry "leave" at every opportunity ?

 

[Wolf]

The observation is in respect of the discussion about the concentration of a lot of high value jobs being in the south east of England; that there can be intent and good words about moving high value jobs out of the south east - but good intent means nothing without action. If the business or the people do not want to move then little will happen without total government commitment and support. Let's see if Johnson and his crew have that - because if they do not want to lose Scotland from the Union then I suggest that the government has to demonstrate significant and sustained commitment to Scotland.

Except its not relevant at all in current context, your talking about a time where people would have to move somewhere hundreds of miles away from families with communication links that were a hard wired phone line only and transport wasn't what it is now. Nowadays MOD can function anywhere at all thanks to technological advances, people have more access to communicate with their family across the world let alone the country and have far easier ways of getting back to that family. Im sorry SiLH buts its simply not comparible now with 1977.

Plus look at it now for context of your argument why would Boris or any political leader look to move MOD services to Scotland when the SNP are continuing to fight for independence, it would be an unbelievable waste of tax payers money because they'd have to relocate again back to England as Scotland would have to create their own defence ministry. Then you'd be the first to complain about the additional spend of the relocation back down south of the border.

Its all well and good saying Westminster must do more for Scotland, but all the while Independence is being batted about why would any government risk spending more North of the border when they could lose all that which could be spent more effectively in Northern England. Its a bit like asking the EU to give us more money to spend on our economy even though we're leaving and there'd be no return of investment. Its simply not logical until the indyref2 argument is settled.

 

[Wolf]

I am asking how it became the hub.
What decisions were made to make it so.

Have a look at the London Skyline before they found oil in Scotland's waters and now, Purely coincidence

You'd have to go back a century or 2 to answer that question, as for London Skyline, suggesting that's because of Scottish oil alone is simply an unbelievable bias and short sighted view that shows as many of your posts do you simply cannot comprehend beyond your own views things that are factual and true.

 

[Captainron]

Let’s be honest. The chances of Scotland gaining independence in a few years and then joining the EU later on are pretty much zero.

Independence would cause a rake load of trouble in the EU as the Basques would want the same and that is a definite no-no.

All of this threatens the EU and if they let Scotland in after a splinter then it opens the doors for others which would weaken their current member nations.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Have a look at the London Skyline before they found oil in Scotland's waters and now, Purely coincidence

Doon, now you are in the realm of sheer fantasy.

The Shard was financed from Qatar, The Gherkin from Brazil, it’s all private finance apart from the MI5 building.

You aren’t doing yourself or your cause any favours with these outlandish comments