The SNIP

[PNWokingham]

Various posters have answered, just look back a few posts and you will find all the replies

if you think they are answers you are living in fairy fantasy land. Nobody is having a go at the Scots for wanting to leave, just asking logical questions that need answers nothing has been said of any credibility on any of these points - list the key points as above and state what you think are the solutions then so we can all see in one nice Scotchit manifesto plan? The key issue for a remainer in the union is how do we get our £150bn? Simples?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

if you think they are answers you are living in fairy fantasy land. Nobody is having a go at the Scots for wanting to leave, just asking logical questions that need answers nothing has been said of any credibility on any of these points - list the key points as above and state what you think are the solutions then so we can all see in one nice Scotchit manifesto plan? The key issue for a remainer in the union is how do we get our £150bn? Simples?

Surely if they did get Independence then it would be sorted, no different to us continually paying in to the EU until 2064.

If they are given another vote and decided to Leave, off they go.

I don’t wish to see the Union split up, but we can’t deny the promises they were given last time have not been kept.

It should be down to the Scottish to decide their future.

 

[drdel]

Various posters have answered, just look back a few posts and you will find all the replies

Bit of a lazy - 'I don't care' response IMO - I've read a lot of emotion and blame but not any direct solutions.

You obviously believe strongly why not give your views/insight on the 4 main issues?

 

[drdel]

Surely if they did get Independence then it would be sorted, no different to us continually paying in to the EU until 2064.

If they are given another vote and decided to Leave, off they go.

I don’t wish to see the Union split up, but we can’t deny the promises they were given last time have not been kept.

It should be down to the Scottish to decide their future.

But that is the point of the debate - supporters must have ideas!

Yup: its only a Forum debate...

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Bit of a lazy - 'I don't care' response IMO - I've read a lot of emotion and blame but not any direct solutions.

You obviously believe strongly why not give your views/insight on the 4 main issues?

Not lazy at all, I am just fed replying to the same two or three people asking the same questions over and over and over and over again.
Whilst, at the same time the same two or three unionist supporters totally avoid replying to any questions asked by the independence supporters on here.
Two in the last couple of hours.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

But how is the point of the debate - supporters must have ideas!

Yup: its only a Forum debate...

Having no ideas or plans seems to have worked out pretty well for Johnson and Farage.
Remember their faces when they knew they had won, after conceding defeat.

 

[drdel]

Having no ideas or plans seems to have worked out pretty well for Johnson and Farage.
Remember their faces when they knew they had won, after conceding defeat.

Deflection!
Fundamental difference...
Brexit followed a referendum vote to leave the EU from a secure financial position.
SNP wish to overturn their citizen's once in a life-time referendum after only a few years while still racking up unsustainable debts.

 

[PNWokingham]

Surely if they did get Independence then it would be sorted, no different to us continually paying in to the EU until 2064.

If they are given another vote and decided to Leave, off they go.

I don’t wish to see the Union split up, but we can’t deny the promises they were given last time have not been kept.

It should be down to the Scottish to decide their future.

I am not saying that it shouldn't be for the Scottish people to decide their future - I am saying that there are some huge questions that need credible solutions and that the key ones rely on support/ cooperation with the UK and the EU

There is no way that Scotland can issue its own debt in any quantity so the only option, as you alude to, would be to remain a debtor to the rest of the UK as the other option of proportioning the the UK Gilt stock by, say 8.3% (scotland poulation as % of UK) or 8.4% (Scottish economy -180bn - as % of UK ecomomy - 2.143bn - is not legally viable. So, probably the only solution would be that the remainder of the UK would likely have to act as a creditor to Scotland for the foreseeable future - scotland would be liable for circa 8.3% to 8.4% of interest payments (coupon) and principal values (the loan amounts when they become due) of the entire UK Government debt stock over the coming decades. Therefore, any plan along these lines needs discusion and agreement with Westminster. The negative for the UK is that we will have a smaller economy and the same notional debt - taking debt/gdp from 85% to 92.8%. I am not sure if the rating agencies or any statistical analysis of the UK position would credit us for the circa £152 billion of receivables that Scotland will owe us??

 

[chrisd]

It should be down to the Scottish to decide their future.

Undoubtedly but not every few years until they get the decision that Wee Krankie requires.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But that is the point of the debate - supporters must have ideas!

Yup: its only a Forum debate...

I am not saying that it shouldn't be for the Scottish people to decide their future - I am saying that there are some huge questions that need credible solutions and that the key ones rely on support/ cooperation with the UK and the EU

There is no way that Scotland can issue its own debt in any quantity so the only option, as you alude to, would be to remain a debtor to the rest of the UK as the other option of proportioning the the UK Gilt stock by, say 8.3% (scotland poulation as % of UK) or 8.4% (Scottish economy -180bn - as % of UK ecomomy - 2.143bn - is not legally viable. So, probably the only solution would be that the remainder of the UK would likely have to act as a creditor to Scotland for the foreseeable future - scotland would be liable for circa 8.3% to 8.4% of interest payments (coupon) and principal values (the loan amounts when they become due) of the entire UK Government debt stock over the coming decades. Therefore, any plan along these lines needs discusion and agreement with Westminster. The negative for the UK is that we will have a smaller economy and the same notional debt - taking debt/gdp from 85% to 92.8%. I am not sure if the rating agencies or any statistical analysis of the UK position would credit us for the circa £152 billion of receivables that Scotland will owe us??


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I don’t doubt any of what you say, but to expect 2 or 3 on here to have the answers is unrealistic.

We saw both in the GE and Brexit threads some well thought out balanced discussions and some nonsense, but all sides at times ignored worst case scenario’s.

The situation for Scotland could be different depending on how well Brexit goes, if it’s as good as we hope the call for Independence may lessen or even disappear, if it’s as bad some predict the Independence calls may grow.

Either way we’d only know the true economic bill they’d face when and if serious discussions take place.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Undoubtedly but not every few years until they get the decision that Wee Krankie requires.

Fair enough, but do you not accept the conditions they were told at the last vote have changed? Surely all sides hold some responsibility.

 

[PNWokingham]

I don’t doubt any of what you say, but to expect 2 or 3 on here to have the answers is unrealistic.

We saw both in the GE and Brexit threads some well thought out balanced discussions and some nonsense, but all sides at times ignored worst case scenario’s.

The situation for Scotland could be different depending on how well Brexit goes, if it’s as good as we hope the call for Independence may lessen or even disappear, if it’s as bad some predict the Independence calls may grow.

Either way we’d only know the true economic bill they’d face when and if serious discussions take place.

the issues are huge so i am not necessarily expecting the people on here to come up with them - but i do expect that the politicians will be able to if they want a vote - because these are the most core, fundamental and key issues for an independant Scotland and to not have credible plans is just not good enough - if the SNP cannot put forward a credible way through these complex and often bilateral points then it should shut up until it can

As i also mentioned a while ago, if I were Boris, i would grant the vote for 2035 if the Scottish parliament still wanted it at the time - and that leaves a big period to work out credible plans but also to see how brexit plays out - and also to see if there is still a euro by then!

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Undoubtedly but not every few years until they get the decision that Wee Krankie requires.

Guys can we please not use this term to describe the SNP Leader,

Ta

 

[Deleted member 16999]

the issues are huge so i am not necessarily expecting the people on here to come up with them - but i do expect that the politicians will be able to if they want a vote - because these are the most core, fundamental and key issues for an independant Scotland and to not have credible plans is just not good enough - if the SNP cannot put forward a credible way through these complex and often bilateral points then it should shut up until it can

As i also mentioned a while ago, if I were Boris, i would grant the vote for 2035 if the Scottish parliament still wanted it at the time - and that leaves a big period to work out credible plans but also to see how brexit plays out - and also to see if there is still a euro by then!

Maybe it’s not coming up with its credible plan until they get the nod for a referendum, a plan today and no referendum for 10-15yrs is pointless.
Look at the stick they still get for the price of oil and their plans etc. Maybe they’ve learned to fight one battle at a time.

If or when a referendum is agreed, then absolutely they should be quizzed on every aspect.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

i would not advocate walking away from any debt and do not believe that would happen - although i suspect there could be fresh interpretations of some aspects of the bill

There are plenty - including all those of the ERG - who were adamant that no trade deal meant we would not pay the £33bn - now I am sure that that sounded attractive to many voters. But hey ho.

Anyway - any Scottish deficit could be at least partly filled by the What Holyrood charges Westminster for hosting Trident until a new base is found for it. That would be a nice bonus for Holyrood during a transition period. Or just host in lieu of Scotland’s share of the uk national debt.

Why not...they’re Scotland’s Lochs ?

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Maybe it’s not coming up with its credible plan until they get the nod for a referendum, a plan today and no referendum for 10-15yrs is pointless.
Look at the stick they still get for the price of oil and their plans etc. Maybe they’ve learned to fight one battle at a time.

If or when a referendum is agreed, then absolutely they should be quizzed on every aspect.

But surely one lesson we can learn from Brexit is not to go into a referendum without a detailed plan if you get the result the SNP want.

These are questions that could determine whether another indie ref is even contemplated.

I like Scotland a lot, but if it left, I don’t think it would affect me much, if at all. I’m just concerned about Scotland’s ability to survive economically as an individual state within Europe

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But surely one lesson we can learn from Brexit is not to go into a referendum without a detailed plan if you get the result the SNP want.

These are questions that could determine whether another indie ref is even contemplated.

I like Scotland a lot, but if it left, I don’t think it would affect me much, if at all. I’m just concerned about Scotland’s ability to survive economically as an individual state within Europe

Have a plan by all means, but didn’t we get stick for saying boris should tell us all the detail of his? The argument was to not let the other side have all the information in advance.

I’d probably take an educated guess and say the SNP do have a plan, but without a defined referendum timescale how much of it would change or be open to ridicule.

I’m the same in that I don’t want them to be separate, but even living in the North of England you can feel left out of decisions made in Westminister.

 

[Slab]

But surely one lesson we can learn from Brexit is not to go into a referendum without a detailed plan if you get the result the SNP want.

These are questions that could determine whether another indie ref is even contemplated.

I like Scotland a lot, but if it left, I don’t think it would affect me much, if at all. I’m just concerned about Scotland’s ability to survive economically as an individual state within Europe

A general reply but I'll tack in onto the latest post about a 'plan'...

Some of the comments are way way way ahead of themselves here and Paul has saved me a lot of typing in his recent posts as he addresses this

I mentioned several pages back that the First Ministers request immediately after the election was primarily related to act as a bargaining position for Scotland as a territory in Britain’s internal exit negotiations of the EU and not directly about an independence referendum anytime in the immediate future.
In fact providing she continues to time it correctly it simply means every time the FM asks for an indyref and Westminster’s (can be forced) to decline it, it actually strengthens Nicola Sturgeons position & the SNP’s... So why wouldn't she ask?

She actually doesn’t have to get agreement from Boris or any other UKGov minister for the exchange to be positive for her, its win/win as long as Westminster can be forced to respond (it could even be argued that Westminster agreeing at this point in time is the last thing the Scottish First Minister actually wants but since it’s also the last thing the UK gov wants then they will always lose out in the exchange) Ideally Westminster being able to ignore the request is best for the current UK Gov but they couldn't do that given that the timing of the latest request made it too high profile

The leader of the SNP is playing her hand the best way possible just now and picking up political gain at a time when the UK Gov has bigger fish to fry

I’m surprised folks can’t see this and are taking way way too much at face value and requesting entire exit plans, strategy’s & manifestos (from folks on a golf forum) for everything from currency to border controls, calm yourselves we’re nowhere near that point in time (in fact we're probably years away at the earliest)

 

[Doon frae Troon]

But surely one lesson we can learn from Brexit is not to go into a referendum without a detailed plan if you get the result the SNP want.

These are questions that could determine whether another indie ref is even contemplated.

I like Scotland a lot, but if it left, I don’t think it would affect me much, if at all. I’m just concerned about Scotland’s ability to survive economically as an individual state within Europe

Ireland and Denmark are countries similar in size without Scotland's natural energy benefits.
They appear to be doing better than the UK at the mo.
Why do you think Scotland cannot cope outwith the UK

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Well Denmark is a very highly taxed society, so if you want to be like Denmark, then you will have to pay for it.

No doubt that Ireland is doing well, and no doubt that a lot of that is down to European assistance and it’s low corporation tax

However now that the EU are losing one of their few net contributors, there isn’t going to be as much money around.
last thing they would want is another country with its hand out.

Denmark and Ireland have well established economies, Scotland will be starting from scratch.

I’m not saying it cannot be done, but I think simply comparing Scotland to other countries of similar size/ population is a bit simplistic