The SNIP

[Grant85]

I think you are right, the Eu would probably accept an independent Scotland back into the fold, but reckon we would have to ditch the pound and a take on the Euro.

However, this is the logic that baffles me with many SNP/YES supporters. Why are they so keen to throw off the bonds of Westminster and England only to tie ourselves up even more tightly with the EU and Brussels? I dont get it?

I accept the currency of iScotland is a challenge. I feel that the Euro is actually a much more credible option than it was in 2014... certainly more credible than a new Scottish currency.

In reality I think iScotland would have been able to keep the pound given the Scottish contribution to the UK balance of payments (via oil and whisky) but obviously this did not play out well enough in the campaign.

But to answer your question... the bonds of Westminster are just that... bonds. If the UK wants to lower VAT, raise corporation tax, declare war on Turkey etc. then Scotland has none or very little say in that.
Within the EU, they would be in a partnership. Look at the influence that Varadkar has over EU negotiations... he has been backed to the hilt by the EU as a small nation of around 1.5% of the EU population.
Compare that with the Scottish Government within the UK framework whose attempts at compromise (EFTA type proposal) were completely dismissed out of hand at the early stages with basically zero attempt to involve Scottish government or even Scottish politicians in the process as it has gone on.

So to say we would be governed even more tightly as an independent nation within the EU is just simply nonsense. An iScottish government would have far more scope to set policy for Scotland, as opposed to simply hoping that policy for London / England matches or doesn't interfere with Scottish interests.

Would the EU set Scottish VAT? No
Would the EU force Scotland into a war? No
Would the EU prevent Scotland from having a referendum on anything? No

 

[User62651]

Why would the EU want another basket ecconomy to support, especially with the funding from England lost.

Derogatory language or trolling just steels resolve. The economy can change once you have full control over how it's set up and regulated. More taxation isn't necessarily a swear word except in blue England, works for countries with highest standards of living. After 9 years of austerity (we're all in it together chaps) many may be thinking might as well give independence a go.

EU is for the greater good, it does spread wealth around from rich to poor which is too socialist an idea for may Tories (who generally happen to be better off). International harmony, co-operation, joined up thinking, wealth redistribution on a continent that has had endless wars is a good thing, it is very tricky to do but better sticking with it than quitting.

Dont know what you've got till it's gone.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think that falls well into the 'Flag Waving' category anyway.

I do see a difference, see Trump. He wraps himself in the Stars and Stripes in a way quite different to the way that all Americans wave their flag. Wrapping yourself in a flag indicates to me that the 'flag' is all - nothing but the nation matters - insular in a way. Waving the flag is not quite the same - not quite so insular - it identifies the waver as being of the nation - not necessarily that the nation is all.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Derogatory language or trolling just steels resolve. The economy can change once you have full control over how it's set up and regulated. More taxation isn't necessarily a swear word except in blue England, works for countries with highest standards of living. After 9 years of austerity (we're all in it together chaps) many may be thinking might as well give independence a go.

EU is for the greater good, it does spread wealth around from rich to poor which is too socialist an idea for may Tories (who generally happen to be better off). International harmony, co-operation, joined up thinking, wealth redistribution on a continent that has had endless wars is a good thing, it is very tricky to do but better sticking with it than quitting.

Dont know what you've got till it's gone.

As I found from a most unexpected source on my recent visit to Edinburgh. A successful and now retired Barrhead-born Tory voter and his Maryhill-born wife (OK - they've lived in Guildford for 30yrs) - moved to Edinburgh 3 yrs ago - neither been supportive of Independence. They told me that, quite astonishingly, they find their hearts now supportive - though their heads are still asking about the numbers.

They told me that they look at Westminster, the toxicity of Brexit Debate, the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg - and the England they lived in for so long and loved - and they now feel that none of it is them - but that they feel 'at home' where they live now. And so for the first time in their lives, and despite what they have thought in the past, they would consider voting for independence.

Yes of course this is just one couple. But if they are thinking this then the Unionists have a problem.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Some questions for independence fans:

If the SNP lost another independence vote how long before they would want another? What would the timescale be? Can you see an end to the discussion without actual independence or is Scotland now caught in a never ending cycle on this subject?

If a vote went in their favour, would they allow another vote if the clamour to rejoin the Union was strong? In particular, if negotiations went along similar lines as the Brexit negotiations would they give voters another chance once they 'had the knowledge of what leaving really meant'?


I have no issue with Scotland gaining independence, it is not an issue for non Scots as far as I can tell.

 

[Grant85]

Some questions for independence fans:

If the SNP lost another independence vote how long before they would want another? What would the timescale be? Can you see an end to the discussion without actual independence or is Scotland now caught in a never ending cycle on this subject?

The only reason the SNP are calling for another referendum is because they keep winning elections. Since 2014 they have won 2 Westminster elections, 1 Scottish Parliamentary election, 1 Scottish Council election and 1 European Parliamentary elections (i.e. won most votes and most seats in all of these polls).

That kind of how democracy works. If you win an election, you are expected to implement what you advocated prior to that vote.

If a vote went in their favour, would they allow another vote if the clamour to rejoin the Union was strong? In particular, if negotiations went along similar lines as the Brexit negotiations would they give voters another chance once they 'had the knowledge of what leaving really meant'?

I have no issue with Scotland gaining independence, it is not an issue for non Scots as far as I can tell.

In this scenario... a unionist party would have to win an election and find a majority in the Scottish Parliament for another referendum. Democracy rules.

With regards to a confirmatory referendum... I don't believe this is necessary in all cases. Parliaments should be able to make the decisions. If the UK Government had gone down the route of negotiating an EFTA / Customs Union agreement with the EU, then we'd have already left the EU and it would have likely been confirmed overwhelmingly by parliament. The reason that a 2nd referendum campaign is now close to succeeding is that the UK Gov have succeeded only in negotiating contentious deals that parliament won't consent to.

Also worth stating that prior to the Scottish Referendum the Scottish Government published a detailed prospectus that they could reasonably have been held accountable against following a settlement with the UK Government. The Leave campaign did nothing of this sort (making it easier to appeal to a wider audience) thus leading to the current state of affairs where even Brexiteers don't agree on a way of leaving.

I would imagine that a Scottish settlement from the UK would be negotiated much more ably by the Scottish Government and they would not be trying to put up contradictory red lines that May and Johnson have both done in their negotiations.

 

[Jacko_G]

I was born and brought up in Scotland but feel British before Scottish.

I hate the SNP and everything they stand for. If independence happens I may well move south of the border if you'll have me.

And give up Dunbar???

I think you'll stay for the golf. 😆

 

[Lord Tyrion]

The only reason the SNP are calling for another referendum is because they keep winning elections. Since 2014 they have won 2 Westminster elections, 1 Scottish Parliamentary election, 1 Scottish Council election and 1 European Parliamentary elections (i.e. won most votes and most seats in all of these polls).

That kind of how democracy works. If you win an election, you are expected to implement what you advocated prior to that vote.



In this scenario... a unionist party would have to win an election and find a majority in the Scottish Parliament for another referendum. Democracy rules.

With regards to a confirmatory referendum... I don't believe this is necessary in all cases. Parliaments should be able to make the decisions. If the UK Government had gone down the route of negotiating an EFTA / Customs Union agreement with the EU, then we'd have already left the EU and it would have likely been confirmed overwhelmingly by parliament. The reason that a 2nd referendum campaign is now close to succeeding is that the UK Gov have succeeded only in negotiating contentious deals that parliament won't consent to.

Also worth stating that prior to the Scottish Referendum the Scottish Government published a detailed prospectus that they could reasonably have been held accountable against following a settlement with the UK Government. The Leave campaign did nothing of this sort (making it easier to appeal to a wider audience) thus leading to the current state of affairs where even Brexiteers don't agree on a way of leaving.

I would imagine that a Scottish settlement from the UK would be negotiated much more ably by the Scottish Government and they would not be trying to put up contradictory red lines that May and Johnson have both done in their negotiations.

Bold number 1 - Does that not apply to the Referendum as well? The Nationalists lost, should they not accept that or is Scotland going to be in this situation for the next X number of years.

Bold number 2 - Can you really pick and choose that way? I don't believe there should be a second EU ref as the first should be enacted but people seem to be selective about when things should and should not apply

In terms of a nationalist party winning elections, it was pointed out recently in this thread that many in Scotland like the policies of the SNP without agreeing with its view on independence. The Westminster and Holyrood elections do not give an automatic mandate for independence, the referendum does that.

In terms of negotiating a settlement I would hope that neither side would follow the UK - EU example, neither come out with glory. Ultimately though, I don't think the Westminster govt would block Scotland in the same way that the EU wants to block the UK, the interests are different.

 

[Jacko_G]

are you on drugs???

Class A mind altering substances is my guess.

 

[patricks148]

Some questions for independence fans:

If the SNP lost another independence vote how long before they would want another? What would the timescale be? Can you see an end to the discussion without actual independence or is Scotland now caught in a never ending cycle on this subject?

If a vote went in their favour, would they allow another vote if the clamour to rejoin the Union was strong? In particular, if negotiations went along similar lines as the Brexit negotiations would they give voters another chance once they 'had the knowledge of what leaving really meant'?


I have no issue with Scotland gaining independence, it is not an issue for non Scots as far as I can tell.

While the SNP are in power is Scotland it will always be on the cards, its the main policy an Independant Scotland

 

[KenL]

Would be amazed to see these reports. I see that you have linked them as they must be so readily available.

There are literally no reports or credible sources saying iScotland would not be able to join the EU.

The best the Brit Nats can come up with are 'Scotland will be out of the EU and it might take a while to get back in... oh and you might need to join the Euro'.

Reality is that iScotland would be very welcome in the EU. There is a huge amount of goodwill in the EU for Scotland and they would easily meet the criteria for membership which would likely be teed up after a Yes vote, prior to legal independence day.

Being in the EU will not be enough to save Scotland from the poverty that awaits it as an independent country. Scotland could well be left in a very precarious position especially if rUK tells them to jog on in terms of a trade deal.

Many big financial companies may walk also, and let's not forget the preferential treatment Scotland gets for military work.

 

[Jacko_G]

While the SNP are in power is Scotland it will always be on the cards, its the main policy an Independant Scotland

Yip, I've got my face paint and claymore at the ready.

"Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom"

Could introduce a "golf tax" that would bring in many millions.

 

[Jacko_G]

Being in the EU will not be enough to save Scotland from the poverty that awaits it as an independent country. Scotland could well be left in a very precarious position especially if rUK tells them to jog on in terms of a trade deal.

Many big financial companies may walk also, and let's not forget the preferential treatment Scotland gets for military work.

That is "key" the bit in bold. More scaremongering.

 

[spongebob59]

can wait to see wee Jimmy Krankies solution to their backstop

 

[Grant85]

Bold number 1 - Does that not apply to the Referendum as well? The Nationalists lost, should they not accept that or is Scotland going to be in this situation for the next X number of years.

Bold number 2 - Can you really pick and choose that way? I don't believe there should be a second EU ref as the first should be enacted but people seem to be selective about when things should and should not apply

In terms of a nationalist party winning elections, it was pointed out recently in this thread that many in Scotland like the policies of the SNP without agreeing with its view on independence. The Westminster and Holyrood elections do not give an automatic mandate for independence, the referendum does that.

In terms of negotiating a settlement I would hope that neither side would follow the UK - EU example, neither come out with glory. Ultimately though, I don't think the Westminster govt would block Scotland in the same way that the EU wants to block the UK, the interests are different.

The referendum was in 2014 - during which the No side stated the only way to stay in the EU is to vote No. That has fallen flat within 2 years. And like I said, democracy didn't end on 19th September 2014 or 24th June 2016... everything is a process. Matters like this are settled when they are settled - there is clearly a growing appetite for another Scottish referendum and for Scotland to be independent.

Saying 'you had a go 5 years ago, forget it' isn't really winning an argument, is it? And will surely only make the SNPs case for them that Scotland is not treated fairly in the 'union'.

Yes there may be some people who vote SNP that don't support independence... but that is true of all parties winning elections. It's why we have a parliamentary democracy where policy and law is scrutinised before coming into being.
Did every Tory voter who gave Cameron his majority in 2015 support coming out of the EU, or even having a referendum? Did many of them know that was even in his manifesto?

Worth noting that support for the SNP used to be generally higher than support for independence, that is no longer the case with SNP at c.40% and independence nearer 50%.

And remember, the SNP is not proposing independence simply after winning an election, its proposing a referendum.

 

[Grant85]

Being in the EU will not be enough to save Scotland from the poverty that awaits it as an independent country. Scotland could well be left in a very precarious position especially if rUK tells them to jog on in terms of a trade deal.

Many big financial companies may walk also, and let's not forget the preferential treatment Scotland gets for military work.

If Scotland is such a big drain on the UK, why are they so keen to keep us?

Your statements are completely ill informed and neglect reality of an energy rich, resource rich nation - desirable for people to live & work in with a population of English speaking graduates that would be attractive to a range of businesses priced out of London or Dublin markets.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

While the SNP are in power is Scotland it will always be on the cards, its the main policy an Independant Scotland

I accept it is blindingly obvious, they are not trying to hide that. Along with Brexit this seems to be an issue that has no end. The SNP seem well ensconced as the main party in Scotland so even if they lose another referendum this will raise its head again and again.

It is tiring hearing about it over and over on the national news, it must be even more wearing on regional news north of the border.

 

[KenL]

If Scotland is such a big drain on the UK, why are they so keen to keep us?

Your statements are completely ill informed and neglect reality of an energy rich, resource rich nation - desirable for people to live & work in with a population of English speaking graduates that would be attractive to a range of businesses priced out of London or Dublin markets.

rUK is not desperate to keep us, I think they just show a respect for a 300 year long union that benefits everybody.

There are zero good reasons to leave the UK.

 

[spongebob59]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1184485942037487616

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I am absolutely certain that an Independent Scotland within the EU would attract much investment and re-settlement from the people of England.