The problem with golf ....

Then why are you participating in this thread? This thread is about attracting new people to the sport and retaining them.

You are throwing up false barriers that are only relevant in your PMC, that is obviously self sustaining and will survive regardless of new golfers taking up the game. Your point may be a good one for your club, and I appreciate that, but it is not relevant to the discussion in this thread, or at least to the point about clubs attracting and retaining new to the game members.

This thread is about 'the problem with golf', not just about attracting new people to the sport and retaining them.
 
To be honest, I really don't care about proprietary clubs. I have been a member of one in the past and the way the members were treated was appalling. I do not want to be a member of a 'club' where my sole purpose is to line the pockets of some businessman. I want to belong and fully integrate into a club where I have a voice in how the club is run, where I know the people in the bar and all the other benefits that a PMC provides.

I'm not slagging off pay and play clubs, just saying they are not my cup of tea. They serve a purpose for many golfers.

Out of curiosity, what would you say is unacceptable in a potential member that you would like to see them turned away from "your" club for?

Are there certain professions/jobs etc that you would deem unacceptable for eg? Or is it appearance? Or attitude?
 
Then why are you participating in this thread? This thread is about attracting new people to the sport and retaining them.

You are throwing up false barriers that are only relevant in your PMC, that is obviously self sustaining and will survive regardless of new golfers taking up the game. Your point may be a good one for your club, and I appreciate that, but it is not relevant to the discussion in this thread, or at least to the point about clubs attracting and retaining new to the game members.

I'm not throwing up any barriers, in fact I am trying to help break them down by trying to clarify the joining process. Also bear in mind that 'P&P' and proprietary clubs are the feeder clubs for PMC's and they have a part to play in attracting the right sort of people into the game.
 
Then why are you participating in this thread? This thread is about attracting new people to the sport and retaining them.

You are throwing up false barriers that are only relevant in your PMC, that is obviously self sustaining and will survive regardless of new golfers taking up the game. Your point may be a good one for your club, and I appreciate that, but it is not relevant to the discussion in this thread, or at least to the point about clubs attracting and retaining new to the game members.

When we had a short fall of members and we were doing surveys of why people weren't joining the club the main reasons were

Cost and Time

Not one single person has said "the joining process"

We had interviews and that didn't turn people away

A joining process imo would only really stop .1 % of people to start playing golf - if that.

The two main reasons will always be imo cost and time

We have got a full membership now and a waiting list from being over a hundred short 2 years ago - because we targeted newer golfer through discounted membership fees under a certain age , bringing in an academy trial 6 month membership and focusing on improving the standard of the golf course - if you have the product that people want to play then they won't care about any joining process

We had people join from the local pay and play and they liked the welcome meetings that we now do - it allows them to ask multiple questions before they pull the trigger - they preferred that than the pay the fee then just go out
 
Out of curiosity, what would you say is unacceptable in a potential member that you would like to see them turned away from "your" club for?

Are there certain professions/jobs etc that you would deem unacceptable for eg? Or is it appearance? Or attitude?

Certainly not profession, colour, creed etc. I wouldn't like to see a hardened threatening criminal join my club. Would you challenge him on a rules infringement during the monthly medal? :eek: Or perhaps a known thief when you are leaving belongings unattended in the locker room? Or even someone who has a track record of getting drunk and obnoxious who would spoil social evenings for other members?

I consider my club to be somewhere I can go to relax and enjoy myself in a civilised, non threatening environment.
 
Certainly not profession, colour, creed etc. I wouldn't like to see a hardened threatening criminal join my club. Would you challenge him on a rules infringement during the monthly medal? :eek: Or perhaps a known thief when you are leaving belongings unattended in the locker room? Or even someone who has a track record of getting drunk and obnoxious who would spoil social evenings for other members?

I consider my club to be somewhere I can go to relax and enjoy myself in a civilised, non threatening environment.

makes sense, not quite sure how you weed all those out in the joining process though
 
I don't think it is enough. If I am about to invest a substantial amount of money (joining fee and subs) into a club then I like to think there is some control over who is allowed to join. The vast majority of people who apply will be admitted but there will always be the odd unsavoury character. There was a guy at my club who had worked his way round most of the clubs in the area, hacking people off and just being generally unpleasant to both playing partners and other members in the clubhouse. He was asked to leave as he spoilt the experience for a lot of people. The interview process is an opportunity to assess these people. He moved out of the area and his reputation caught him up, he was refused entry into the club he tried to join.
So it was irrelevant how many questions he had for them then as it seems his interview was pre-determined.
 
So it was irrelevant how many questions he had for them then as it seems his interview was pre-determined.

The guy in question was actually a country member at a club in Devon. When he left my club and moved down there he asked to convert to full member but because of his track record of hacking off other members his application was refused so he had to join a neighbouring club.

So yes, I guess the interview (if he got that far) was pre-determined.
 
If the behaviour of the golfer is not in keeping with the club (an extreme example; picking fights with other players), the club can deny future access to the pay and play visitor. Different approach is necessary for members.

Not all clubs want or need new members. Not all clubs have problems getting new members. Not all clubs need to even consider changing how they currently accept new members.

Some people call this being elitist. They are a business. They run their business how they deem fit.



I think this is the first time you have ever specified this. I may be wrong.
Now that you have specified it, do you have any actual examples of a club that is struggling but won't change how they attract members? I am pretty confident that these are the clubs that tend to flex their approach immediately (i.e. waive a joining fee, offer more flexible membership programmes etc...).




So you are saying that interviews and vetting in this example is fine. So you don't always have a problem with it? Only if a golf club is struggling for members or struggling financially? That's confusing.

1) This thread moved from changing the game to how can we attract and retain players early on, without changing the game itself.

2) Not all clubs want new members, I agree. If a club has members spaces available then they are seeking new players in the vast majority.

3) Someone else mentioned clubs struggling and closing etc this is when the topic of attracting new players was opened, along with perceived barriers- sorry for assuming you had read the thread.

4) Interviews and vetting was suggested as a barrier to people joining and putting them off. If a club has a waiting list, then they are not concerned with who is put off, so interview away - you could gauge long term commitment from an interview or what the proposed member brings to the already full club.

If a club has plenty of space then why the need for this process which MAY put SOME people off?

5) My current club is not struggling at all, they have about 60% membership capacity. Anyone who goes along and joins will get in no doubt- but my point has always been about those who get put off by what they may think as they are new to the game and while the club has relaxed some rules and now welcomes more Pay and Play, some things are still in place that put me off in the first place, as I was unaware of all the smoke and mirrors.

We have a self employed painter decorator as a past captain who smokes like a train, drives an old Rover and is a top bloke and great ambassador for the club. Nothing wrong with that, but if you walked into your town stopped a random person and asked them to describe the type of person that would be a golf club captain they will more than likely go for a retired professional, who drives a Range, cooks breakfast on the AGA and enjoys the finer things in life. My point here is the game for all we love it, is NOT how its is perceived to the many.
 
makes sense, not quite sure how you weed all those out in the joining process though

Neither am I but I know that club managers all talk to each other so maybe word of mouth and individual reputation. As I say, the process is far from perfect but I strongly believe that some form of interview protects the club for the majority.
 
Reading through the thread it appears the biggest problem is the perception of Golf clubs from newish Golfers.

Putting the small minority of high end uber private clubs aside ..is there actually a problem or is it purely perception of what might be with the reality being totally different..

Apart from Dishing out Group hugs and some nice biscuits before handing out the bag tags I don't see what more clubs can do.
Its only my opinion but Ive been a member of 5 clubs in 16 yrs. Ive had interviews/Welcome chats/ A play in or whatever you want to call it. Everytime it's been informative, welcoming and friendly.
Ok, there's still a few stuffy types out there, that's just life.. out of 300-500 members are you ever going to find any establishment/club full of like minded people?
 
Certainly not profession, colour, creed etc. I wouldn't like to see a hardened threatening criminal join my club. Would you challenge him on a rules infringement during the monthly medal? :eek: Or perhaps a known thief when you are leaving belongings unattended in the locker room? Or even someone who has a track record of getting drunk and obnoxious who would spoil social evenings for other members?

I consider my club to be somewhere I can go to relax and enjoy myself in a civilised, non threatening environment.

See I find that a litle off. People may have made errors in the past and yet to seem determined to label them once a crim always a crim. People do change and to be fair how would you ever know they had a record. It's rarely brought up at interviews or on application forms. I prefer to treat people as I find them and given them the benefit, at least initially. If someone does steal or fight then surely it's a matter for the police and the club would have internal disciplinary measures in place. I just find this sort of reaction rather patronising and elitist. Have you never made mistakes or done things you regret (and by you I mean in a general forum capacity - this isn't directed directly at you - just the attitude itself)
 
See I find that a litle off. People may have made errors in the past and yet to seem determined to label them once a crim always a crim. People do change and to be fair how would you ever know they had a record. It's rarely brought up at interviews or on application forms. I prefer to treat people as I find them and given them the benefit, at least initially. If someone does steal or fight then surely it's a matter for the police and the club would have internal disciplinary measures in place. I just find this sort of reaction rather patronising and elitist. Have you never made mistakes or done things you regret (and by you I mean in a general forum capacity - this isn't directed directly at you - just the attitude itself)

So in this day and age of freely available information, you would rather take in a known criminal then kick him out AFTER he has stolen the club's trophies rather than some sort of vetting at the application stage?

Sure people change. We are not talking about someone who got into a drunken brawl 20 years ago, we are talking about people who are known to be bad apples. Given the choice would you really want them in your club?
 
When we had a short fall of members and we were doing surveys of why people weren't joining the club the main reasons were

Cost and Time

Not one single person has said "the joining process"

We had interviews and that didn't turn people away

A joining process imo would only really stop .1 % of people to start playing golf - if that.

The two main reasons will always be imo cost and time

Ok I see your point and vary valid.

What would be interesting is to survey people who have never played and see what their opinions are.

While you and I, or any other golfer have played while and time and cost could be a problem for us, there will be a lot of people in our society with plenty of both who are put off from ever picking up a club because of reasons that I and others in the forum have suggested. The joint process being a very crucial and often in most sports the first thing needed (granted in golf you don't have to join a club, but many people never to play the game will not know this).
 
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Golf is broken, that's a given.

The solution? Maybe it needs to redefine what "fixed" is rather than over extending to make everyone happy.

Established members don't see the problems, why would they, it's fine as it is and I agree. When I was a member and not a parent golf was PERFECT and there was no need to change.

For people coming in new or trying to get back in it's just not fit for purpose. I can't see it being so for another decade... 10 years or more of a club not getting my subs, I want it to just be 3-5 years.

We may need less golf clubs but we needmore variety of clubs, some short, some long, more 9 hole courses etc. Maybe we need more clubs, just less 7000 yard "championship" courses.

Those shorter that do exist need to offer competitions and handicap rather than just a place to play golf.

When we fully understand what fixed is we can see what is REALLY broken.
 
An interview should not be a barrier to anyone taking up Golf, but reading the thread I believe it's more of a perception and terminology issue than anything else, from my point of view I would see the interview as the last link in the chain, I would've already done my homework as to why that was the Club I wanted to join, comps, social side, course etc, so I'd hope to have few or even no questions for the interviewee,
Some Clubs seem to call it an interview but in truth is a welcome chat and some you simply pay and don't meet anyone.
There is obviously room for all types as people want different things.
Is it off putting for some, imo, yes undoubtebly, but hopefully that is a very small tiny minority.
 
So in this day and age of freely available information, you would rather take in a known criminal then kick him out AFTER he has stolen the club's trophies rather than some sort of vetting at the application stage?

Sure people change. We are not talking about someone who got into a drunken brawl 20 years ago, we are talking about people who are known to be bad apples. Given the choice would you really want them in your club?

I get what you're saying Gordon but I'm not sure that the club's process would not be viewed discriminatory under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. Its questionable...
 
Ok I see your point and vary valid.

What would be interesting is to survey people who have never played and see what their opinions are.

Well you and I, or any other golfer have played while and time and cost could be a problem for us, there will be a lot of people in our society with plenty of both who are put off from ever picking up a club because of reasons that I and others in the forum have suggested. The joint process being a very crucial and often in most sports the first thing needed (granted in golf you don't have to join a club, but many people never to play the game will not know this).

After speaking to people who join via the Academy Membership which is for people who want to take the game up - there main worry is embarrassment of when they duff a shot in front of people and being intimidated - part of the academy membership is they are encouraged to play on the course during the quieter periods at first. Once they get used to that and if they still want to carry on they then become full members after 6 months. During that 6 months I try to go out and play with them at least once and also we have a number of volunteers HC ranging up to 26 who also play with them. As soon as they realise a Cat 1 player isn't someone to be scared off and will duff a shot and that there are plenty who will duff shots they are then asked if they want to join a roll up and their name given to the main roll up organiser who ensures they integrate well.

Over the past 18 months we have had 28 people start an academy membership - 18 Ladies , 17 which joined full time and 9 out of the ten men are now full time members.

A joining process is needed to join any club - the process will always be defined by the standard of the club imo and what they want. A PMC want more than just golfers - they want members , people who feel pride in joining a club and being part of something.

I actually don't think golf is any worse off right now than all sports - golf boomed in the 80's and i expect we are now at what you would say normal levels and the golf clubs that are around are the ones that offer a decent standard of golf course
 
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Reading through the thread it appears the biggest problem is the perception of Golf clubs from newish Golfers.

Putting the small minority of high end uber private clubs aside ..is there actually a problem or is it purely perception of what might be with the reality being totally different..

Yes this, most know it's only perceived and not real, the point is how to overcome it really, like anything once you know it, use it and understand it it is never as intimidating or strange as you first thought it.

The thing is perception for many is a reality and as we all know, people are quick to believe anything they read or hear even without any actual facts to back it up.

There is no doubt though that many people have examples of that stuff, stuck up and some what out dated thinking from being told off for the wrong socks to being treated like a second class citizen. the thing is when that happens in other walks of life say in a shop you just don't go there any more or use a different company, person, supplier etc.
 
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I get what you're saying Gordon but I'm not sure that the club's process would not be viewed discriminatory under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. Its questionable...

I have no idea how a private club would be legislated in this sort of area. Is blackballing someone considered an offence? Not a clue Brian. As you are aware, clubs blackball someone because they went to the wrong school or live on the wrong side of town or because they drive a Korean car instead of a German one. I'm sure they will be creative in the wording of the rejection letter :whistle:
 
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