The problem with golf ....

[PJ87]

But even if he's known locally, he may put up a case as a reformed character or give his side of the previous incidents and get let in anyway. The interview process isn't a fail safe. Someone brought up convictions, and again if someone has done wrong before why should they still pay for these mistakes when joining a club for a leisure activity? This is where the elitist tag, not only clubs, but within the membership itself is still rife.

Exactly homer

imagine an 18 year did drink driving (btw this isn't real it's no way connected to points I got on my licence years ago it's an example) and got say 6 months inside suspended and 12 month ban (see it paper all time)

affects this person getting a job for years

finally as say a 40 year old their grown up don't do this anymore and never have since why should it be used as a reason to exclude them from a pass time?

I am not btw condoning drink driving just an example of a crime that's not a murderer lol

 

[CMNI]

I understand some people suffer from anxiety and this may cause them to be anxious but I am not really convinced you should change your whole approach based on someone's anxiety issues.
Should we change the way driving tests work because some people can drive but get so nervous during a test that they keep failing?

No because then they are not a confident driver. But your examples are so wildly off topic they make no sense.

What is the problem: Golf in decline
Question: Why do you think that it is?

One proposed answer: Golf is perceived as stuffy and elitest.
Question: How so?

Response: How is it stuffy and elitest?
Suggested answer: It seems like you need to break into it rather than be welcomed with open arms.

Question: How so?
Suggested answer: Interview process can be daunting to those who are new to the sport, a sport which is falsely labelled as stuffy and elitest. If they perceive that it is stuffy and elitest then they may often assume that the interview is tougher than we know it is.

Thats the important part- we know it isn't tough, but some (NOT ALL) may think I'm not boys club material I won't get in. Thats how I felt in the beginning so didn't join a club, but rather played around until I got to know the culture, however I see that as a missed opportunity for a club, as I was spending a lot of money getting into the game and if I had found a welcoming club actively seeking newbies with zero experience and offering the chance to learn the game as part of a golfing community I would have been straight down. I would have likely had all my lessons with that pro, bought my clubs in the shop, and having now got my brother and a friend into golf likely also brought 2 other potential new members along.

The point remains that it is still a barrier to SOME.

 

[CMNI]

I don't think it is enough. If I am about to invest a substantial amount of money (joining fee and subs) into a club then I like to think there is some control over who is allowed to join. The vast majority of people who apply will be admitted but there will always be the odd unsavoury character. There was a guy at my club who had worked his way round most of the clubs in the area, hacking people off and just being generally unpleasant to both playing partners and other members in the clubhouse. He was asked to leave as he spoilt the experience for a lot of people. The interview process is an opportunity to assess these people. He moved out of the area and his reputation caught him up, he was refused entry into the club he tried to join.

Yes but that is your PMC. If its a club where you can pay and play as much as you want (which tends to be the more common, and certainly the type more likely to attract new players which was the point raised earlier in the thread) then why the need for a drawn out application process?

 

[Robobum]

Interviews do not keep out wronguns!!!

This guy was "interviewed" by our club - it became a running joke for the captain that did it when this came about!!

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/4090094.OXFORD_RAPE__Man_snared_by_his_own_DNA_after_24_years/

 

[PJ87]

No because then they are not a confident driver. But your examples are so wildly off topic they makes no sense.

What is the problem: Golf in decline
Question: Why do you think that it is?

One proposed answer: Golf is perceived as stuffy and elitest.
Question: How so?

Response: How is it stuffy and elitest?
Suggested answer: It seems like you need to break into it rather than be welcomed with open arms.

Question: How so?
Suggested answer: Interview process can be daunting to those who are new to the sport, a sport which is falsely labelled as stuffy and elitest. If they perceive that it is stuffy and elitest then they may often assume that the interview is tougher than we know it is.

Thats the important part- we know it isn't tough, but some (NOT ALL) may think I'm not boys club material I won't get in. Thats how I felt in the beginning so didn't join a club, but rather played around until I got to know the culture, however I see that as a missed opportunity for a club, as I was spending a lot of money getting into the game and if I had found a welcoming club actively seeking newbies with zero experience and offering the chance to learn the game as part of a golfing community I would have been straight down. I would have likely had all my lessons with that pro, bought my clubs in the shop, and having now got my brother and a friend into golf likely also brought 2 other potential new members along.

The point remains that it is still a barrier to SOME.

Very good point well made.

there is a club near me I'm toying with joining (£25 for a year but you pay green fees) I rang to ask what it entails just turn up pay £25 play 3 rounds off the whites hand in the cards and get a handicap you can use in the monthly stableford and obviously an official handicap

like the idea means I could play in monthly events.. only thing stopping me is expecting baby soon so don't know how much I'll be playing after he/she arrives

 

[londonlewis]

Every single situation you have given is completely different from joining a golf club

driving a car? So proving you have the knowledge and skill required to operate a dangerous vechile

getting a mortgage? So proving you are suitable to lend money to so you don't go into arrears and have to chase for money

applying for a job? Proving your the best for that role

none of these are even remotely the same as applying to be a member of a club that is your choice to do. You have to have money to buy a house (mortgage or otherwise) you need a licence to drive (legally) you need to work (unless for obvious reasons you can't.. or are rich)

you don't need to play golf it's an option (which I can understand that owning a house and driving a car are options they are different kinds of options)

if you say were applying to become a coach of a kids football team (an option) you need to be vetted for obvious reasons (which some are saying the interview in golf does) but because the membership of a club shouldn't matter if you say committed a minor offence years ago it's not the same as being a role model to children. I appreciate what drive4show has been saying about this guy who sounded like an idiot being vetted out but how easy is it to lie in an interview and put on a show?

Yes, you are right. They are different.

If you won't provide the right information to a bank - they won't give you a mortgage. Therefore, you rent.

If you don't pass your driving test - you aren't allowed to drive. Therefore, you find another mode of transport.

If you won't complete the necessary steps in order to be accepted as a member of a golf club - you don't become a member. Therefore, you pay as you go.


Everyone appreciates that companies require you to interview in order to get a job.
Some require multiple interviews, online tests, screening processes, references to be provided before an offer is made, assessment centres etc... some companies have a much more rigorous process than others. Some interviews are informal conversations, where you are assessed for your cultural fit. Others are competency / technical based where you are grilled on your competence to perform the tasks involved in the role. Therefore, some companies can be intimidating to join and others aren't. You have a choice as to where you want to work, just like you have a choice as to where you want to play golf.

And since when should a member's club be an open door for anyone that wants to join?
It seems like people's aversion to the membership process at a golf club revolves around one key issue; it puts introverts off. If you really want something enough, you'll find a way of getting it.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

But even if he's known locally, he may put up a case as a reformed character or give his side of the previous incidents and get let in anyway. The interview process isn't a fail safe. Someone brought up convictions, and again if someone has done wrong before why should they still pay for these mistakes when joining a club for a leisure activity? This is where the elitist tag, not only clubs, but within the membership itself is still rife.

You are right it isn't a failsafe but I believe it is better than nothing at all?

 

[Yer Maw]

Bit late on the reply front. My perspective is golf will inevitably decline as it falls out of fashion from the Tiger Woods heydays when it was at its peak. The public go round in circles with what they like and these days the scrabble is for running and cycling events which are heavily oversubscribed and sell out as soon as they open. I don't think it should be a popularity contest, but the best golf clubs with the best courses survive and the weakest don't.
Of all the reasons made for the fall off in numbers (not popularity) I think time is the biggest factor. Many have said they enjoy a round of 3-4 hours (perfect time for me as well) when the reality is it can often be much longer due to either a lack of understanding on how to play without delay, or just poorly run courses that don't enforce etiquette on faster play. This one thing can almost ruin a round for me or at least detract from the enjoyment with all the hanging around.
Clubs need to be very proactive with starters ensuring players know the standard to adhere to and be willing to send out a Marshall to groups who are holding everyone up. The Pros don't help but there is nothing the clubs can do about the Pros so forget them and oversee slow play at club level.

 

[londonlewis]

No because then they are not a confident driver. But your examples are so wildly off topic they make no sense.

What is the problem: Golf in decline
Question: Why do you think that it is?

One proposed answer: Golf is perceived as stuffy and elitest.
Question: How so?

Response: How is it stuffy and elitest?
Suggested answer: It seems like you need to break into it rather than be welcomed with open arms.

Question: How so?
Suggested answer: Interview process can be daunting to those who are new to the sport, a sport which is falsely labelled as stuffy and elitest. If they perceive that it is stuffy and elitest then they may often assume that the interview is tougher than we know it is.

Thats the important part- we know it isn't tough, but some (NOT ALL) may think I'm not boys club material I won't get in. Thats how I felt in the beginning so didn't join a club, but rather played around until I got to know the culture, however I see that as a missed opportunity for a club, as I was spending a lot of money getting into the game and if I had found a welcoming club actively seeking newbies with zero experience and offering the chance to learn the game as part of a golfing community I would have been straight down. I would have likely had all my lessons with that pro, bought my clubs in the shop, and having now got my brother and a friend into golf likely also brought 2 other potential new members along.

The point remains that it is still a barrier to SOME.

Ok. Thanks.

 

[ger147]

The criminal convictions point is an interesting one.

How do the clubs know? Does your club do a CRB check on all potential new members? If so, do you require photographic ID to ensure personal details supplied are accurate so the CRB check is worthwhile?

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Yes but that is your PMC. If its a club where you can pay and play as much as you want (which tends to be the more common, and certainly the type more likely to attract new players which was the point raised earlier in the thread) then why the need for a drawn out application process?

To be honest, I really don't care about proprietary clubs. I have been a member of one in the past and the way the members were treated was appalling. I do not want to be a member of a 'club' where my sole purpose is to line the pockets of some businessman. I want to belong and fully integrate into a club where I have a voice in how the club is run, where I know the people in the bar and all the other benefits that a PMC provides.

I'm not slagging off pay and play clubs, just saying they are not my cup of tea. They serve a purpose for many golfers.

 

[PJ87]

Why is it then that big courses like Woburn for example are more welcoming to outsiders than some (not all I appreciate that) clubs

for example I find South Herts very snotty whenever we play there. I remember reaching to remove my hat when walking through the clubhouse door (from outside after the round) and being told whilst taking my hat off that I had to remove the hat or go outside

 

[CMNI]

Yes, you are right. They are different.


And since when should a member's club be an open door for anyone that wants to join?
It seems like people's aversion to the membership process at a golf club revolves around one key issue; it puts introverts off. If you really want something enough, you'll find a way of getting it.

Right you are. If you want it enough you will do it.

But as you say you pay and play, so you are already welcome at that club and play there often. What difference is paying for a years worth of access vs paying for a rounds worth? Other than the club has more security as they have your details, and money guaranteed.

Why make it a more difficult process? Why make it off putting to SOME?

We are discussing about how to get more members into clubs, surely streamlining the process and shouting from the club house roof "COME PLAY HERE, WE ARE LOVELY!" is better than being reclusive and hoping someone will come along, so adamant they want to be in your club, that they peel their way through all the tape.

Again I am talking about smaller struggling local clubs opposed to the top clubs that have waiting lists and are in high demand (obviously if its one in one out membership interviews and vetting is much more important- but will a 25-30YO novice really imagine walking up to Royal County Down and getting a full membership with their starter set from sports direct?)

 

[PJ87]

To be honest, I really don't care about proprietary clubs. I have been a member of one in the past and the way the members were treated was appalling. I do not want to be a member of a 'club' where my sole purpose is to line the pockets of some businessman. I want to belong and fully integrate into a club where I have a voice in how the club is run, where I know the people in the bar and all the other benefits that a PMC provides.

I'm not slagging off pay and play clubs, just saying they are not my cup of tea. They serve a purpose for many golfers.

That's actually a very good point that I hadn't considered . My old club was constantly busy and I played other day on a freezing day and it was still waiting on every hole. Par 5 you had a group on green a group 200 yards from green and us on the tee you are very much lining the owners pocket rather than feeling like part of a club

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Why is it then that big courses like Woburn for example are more welcoming to outsiders than some (not all I appreciate that) clubs

for example I find South Herts very snotty whenever we play there. I remember reaching to remove my hat when walking through the clubhouse door (from outside after the round) and being told whilst taking my hat off that I had to remove the hat or go outside

Because it is a business and only interested in your money?

 

[CMNI]

To be honest, I really don't care about proprietary clubs. I have been a member of one in the past and the way the members were treated was appalling. I do not want to be a member of a 'club' where my sole purpose is to line the pockets of some businessman. I want to belong and fully integrate into a club where I have a voice in how the club is run, where I know the people in the bar and all the other benefits that a PMC provides.

I'm not slagging off pay and play clubs, just saying they are not my cup of tea. They serve a purpose for many golfers.

Then why are you participating in this thread? This thread is about attracting new people to the sport and retaining them.

You are throwing up false barriers that are only relevant in your PMC, that is obviously self sustaining and will survive regardless of new golfers taking up the game. Your point may be a good one for your club, and I appreciate that, but it is not relevant to the discussion in this thread, or at least to the point about clubs attracting and retaining new to the game members.

 

[PJ87]

Because it is a business and only interested in your money?

Indeed

however before I started really getting into golf I always worried about being turned away from a course for not having a handicap of 24 that I could prove.

always used to see it on clubs websites

after playing for a while now I have never had an issue or been asked to prove my handicap but when starting out I was always like oh best not play here

 

[HomerJSimpson]

The criminal convictions point is an interesting one.

How do the clubs know? Does your club do a CRB check on all potential new members? If so, do you require photographic ID to ensure personal details supplied are accurate so the CRB check is worthwhile?

Clubs wouldn't do a CRB check for potential members as I can't see there being an inherent risk. However if they get involved with the juniors (for example) as I have, arranging and overseeing matches for them, then a CRB will be required and the club should provide this and insist it's completed before the member begins to do this activity. As for run of the mill (as such) convictions, then I don't see the issue or indeed the need to mention it. Again, if for argument sake there is a theft or false accounting conviction and the member get a role involving taking or counting money on a committee etc, then I can see there would be a need for him to declare this at that time. If not, let previous mistakes lie in the past

 

[londonlewis]

Right you are. If you want it enough you will do it.

But as you say you pay and play, so you are already welcome at that club and play there often. What difference is paying for a years worth of access vs paying for a rounds worth? Other than the club has more security as they have your details, and money guaranteed.

Why make it a more difficult process? Why make it off putting to SOME?

We are discussing about how to get more members into clubs, surely streamlining the process and shouting from the club house roof "COME PLAY HERE, WE ARE LOVELY!" is better than being reclusive and hoping someone will come along, so adamant they want to be in your club, that they peel their way through all the tape.

Again I am talking about smaller struggling local clubs opposed to the top clubs that have waiting lists and are in high demand (obviously if its one in one out membership interviews and vetting is much more important- but will a 25-30YO novice really imagine walking up to Royal County Down and getting a full membership with their starter set from sports direct?)

What difference is paying for a years worth of access vs paying for a rounds worth?

If the behaviour of the golfer is not in keeping with the club (an extreme example; picking fights with other players), the club can deny future access to the pay and play visitor. Different approach is necessary for members.

We are discussing about how to get more members into clubs

Not all clubs want or need new members. Not all clubs have problems getting new members. Not all clubs need to even consider changing how they currently accept new members.

Some people call this being elitist. They are a business. They run their business how they deem fit.

Again I am talking about smaller struggling local clubs

I think this is the first time you have ever specified this. I may be wrong.
Now that you have specified it, do you have any actual examples of a club that is struggling but won't change how they attract members? I am pretty confident that these are the clubs that tend to flex their approach immediately (i.e. waive a joining fee, offer more flexible membership programmes etc...).

opposed to the top clubs that have waiting lists and are in high demand (obviously if its one in one out membership interviews and vetting is much more important

So you are saying that interviews and vetting in this example is fine. So you don't always have a problem with it? Only if a golf club is struggling for members or struggling financially? That's confusing.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Why is it then that big courses like Woburn for example are more welcoming to outsiders than some (not all I appreciate that) clubs

for example I find South Herts very snotty whenever we play there. I remember reaching to remove my hat when walking through the clubhouse door (from outside after the round) and being told whilst taking my hat off that I had to remove the hat or go outside

Because you are paying a lot more to Woburn - I know plenty members of the place who believe the club takes more interest in the corporate and society people than the member

And to be a member you need to jump through the "hoops" you are all talking about