The Next Labour leader

[patricks148]

I know. But the Labour Party has to first understand what it has to do to survive in the political landscape of today if it is to grow and recover. I am afraid that politics today seems to be moving to satisfy any individual's feelings of entitlement and wealth...rather than what is for the wider and greater good. But that is the landscape.

There is a great biblical parable (sorry) about what is required to survive and grow. There is nothing to be gained from sowing seeds where the soil looks good but is thin and underneath is rock. The seed will germinate and shoots will grow - it will look good, but the soil is thin and roots cannot penetrate the rock - so first sign of drought the shoots wither and die. Neither is there any point in sowing where there are weeds, as the weeds will strangle the new shoots. You can weed the soil - but we know how difficult it is to clear weeds - they come back. You sow where you manage to find deep and good soil - soil that suits your seeds and that will sustain growth of new shoots. And what isn't in the parable - if you find that the good soil is not what best suits your seeds - you either change your seeds or work on the soil to make it suitable. You decide which approach is best for you - what change is the right thing to do, what you can change, and so determine that which is the most sustainable.

I can't say i have much knowledge of the NE other that what Thatcher did to the place back in the 80'sbut have I have a friend who is a Musician who's from that part of the world, he still tours the UK. judging by the many thousands of his followers on SM, many of them in the NE, the consensus was all about Imigration

 

[Foxholer]

I can't say i have much knowledge of the NE other that what Thatcher did to the place back in the 80'sbut have I have a friend who is a Musician who's from that part of the world, he still tours the UK. judging by the many thousands of his followers on SM, many of them in the NE, the consensus was all about Imigration

That's pretty much the same impression from my North East born, widely travelled (Kenya, Italy, Argentina to name a few with Oil Engineering father) golfing mate. But he also stated that for most of them it's not the European influx they are 'rebelling' against!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I can't say i have much knowledge of the NE other that what Thatcher did to the place back in the 80'sbut have I have a friend who is a Musician who's from that part of the world, he still tours the UK. judging by the many thousands of his followers on SM, many of them in the NE, the consensus was all about Imigration

That's pretty much the same impression from my North East born, widely travelled (Kenya, Italy, Argentina to name a few with Oil Engineering father) golfing mate. But he also stated that for most of them it's not the European influx they are 'rebelling' against!

I find that very surprising and does not fit with what I hear locally either in practice or in general media. What immigration influx do we have up here to cause a problem? Possibly in the Middlesborough area, at a stretch, but that is all.

Traditional Labour voters here, based on anecdotal and also many, many tv interviews that I have seen since the election left them because:

They did not trust Corbyn (huge, huge, huge)
They did not believe his giveaway promises (also huge)
They wanted to leave the EU
Those that voted Remain acccepted that the referendum had to be enacted
They wanted the deadlock in Westminster unlocked and they only saw Labour blocking it
They felt taken for granted

Immigration has not been raised as a reason, not once. Don't fall for twitter noise, it really is not a good barometer of the mass public.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I find that very surprising and does not fit with what I hear locally either in practice or in general media. What immigration influx do we have up here to cause a problem? Possibly in the Middlesborough area, at a stretch, but that is all.

Traditional Labour voters here, based on anecdotal and also many, many tv interviews that I have seen since the election left them because:

They did not trust Corbyn (huge, huge, huge)
They did not believe his giveaway promises (also huge)
They wanted to leave the EU
Those that voted Remain acccepted that the referendum had to be enacted
They wanted the deadlock in Westminster unlocked and they only saw Labour blocking it
They felt taken for granted

Immigration has not been raised as a reason, not once. Don't fall for twitter noise, it really is not a good barometer of the mass public.

I 75% agree, the other 25% is immigration imo, I’ve had many discussions with locals about immigrations issues up here, again, imo, it is nowhere the issue it is in other parts of the UK, but it is an issue, remember we’ve also had the BNP hold marches in both Newcastle and Sunderland.
The locals are convinced Labour has abandoned them and that goes back to Blair when they believed he failed to correct a lot of the wrongs thatcher had inflicted on them.
I do have many a discussion about the EU with them as well as surprisingly, more EU grants has been spent on them than UK grants.
Yes I know it was our money coming back to us, but the billboards/signs etc are littered with EU flags etc, not the Union flag.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I 75% agree, the other 25% is immigration imo, I’ve had many discussions with locals about immigrations issues up here, again, imo, it is nowhere the issue it is in other parts of the UK, but it is an issue, remember we’ve also had the BNP hold marches in both Newcastle and Sunderland.
The locals are convinced Labour has abandoned them and that goes back to Blair when they believed he failed to correct a lot of the wrongs thatcher had inflicted on them.
I do have many a discussion about the EU with them as well as surprisingly, more EU grants has been spent on them than UK grants.
Yes I know it was our money coming back to us, but the billboards/signs etc are littered with EU flags etc, not the Union flag.

I totally accept that my part of Northumberland is somewhat cosseted on that front so immigration is not an issue at all here. I do accept it could be in other areas but not to the extent of the other issues I raised. Listening to all of the post election interviews in areas that have turned blue not one raised immigration as an issue. Now I get that people often don't open up about that in public but those other issues raised, plus what you rightly said, are way more at the forefront.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I totally accept that my part of Northumberland is somewhat cosseted on that front so immigration is not an issue at all here. I do accept it could be in other areas but not to the extent of the other issues I raised. Listening to all of the post election interviews in areas that have turned blue not one raised immigration as an issue. Now I get that people often don't open up about that in public but those other issues raised, plus what you rightly said, are way more at the forefront.

The one woman in Leigh (over the NW) stated she voted tory because Wigan gets all the money!! I despair with some of the reasons I’ve heard!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Not a good move to go to Court - wiser to get a retraction or apology over quickly than drag it out for the media to feast upon.

Surely it’s the only move? She gave her 24hrs to withdraw the comment or face legal action.
24hrs is up, has to stick to her word.

 

[patricks148]

I find that very surprising and does not fit with what I hear locally either in practice or in general media. What immigration influx do we have up here to cause a problem? Possibly in the Middlesborough area, at a stretch, but that is all.

Traditional Labour voters here, based on anecdotal and also many, many tv interviews that I have seen since the election left them because:

They did not trust Corbyn (huge, huge, huge)
They did not believe his giveaway promises (also huge)
They wanted to leave the EU
Those that voted Remain acccepted that the referendum had to be enacted
They wanted the deadlock in Westminster unlocked and they only saw Labour blocking it
They felt taken for granted

Immigration has not been raised as a reason, not once. Don't fall for twitter noise, it really is not a good barometer of the mass public.

not twitter noise, it was his FB page, hundreds of replies across the north Of England, most of the comments were on the Red wall turning tory.

but also most of the interviews i've seen on the news and CA programs the main reason for leaving the EU that stick to me was freedom of movement

 

[clubchamp98]

Surely it’s the only move? She gave her 24hrs to withdraw the comment or face legal action.
24hrs is up, has to stick to her word.

That would be a first for a politician!
I just hope Flint has the evidence to back this up after all the complaints about lying in the ref/GE.

 

[williamalex1]

Seems the Labour war/battle has begun, earlier than i thought. Thought John Mcdonnels apology was sincere, thought Corbyns apology was typically pathetic. Mind you what with me being a stupid Midlands voter, what would I know.

Tashyladdie you're almost Scottish

 

[Tashyboy]

Tashyladdie you're almost Scottish

Och away with you William ??

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Please explain the 2017 GE result.

@SwingsitlikeHogan Can you have a look at the question I posed? In case you missed it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Please explain the 2017 GE result.

The wider electorate perhaps did not know Corbyn on the anti Semitic issue, and they thought that Labour would honour the views of the electorate over Brexit. The fact is that the MPs clearly saw the car crash coming, but the membership were in denial - and the 2017 result did nothing to change its mind - that just momentarily hid what was coming. So as my analogy - the close family saw the damage that was coming but the addicts pals were convinced they were OK - that they were coping just fine with life and that everyone loved them despite occasional trips and misdemeanours.

And as for many rock-bottoms - the crash was very painful - not that it was unexpected...by the MPs - hell of a shock for those in denial

The denial can continue after the rock-bottom...and that is where some labour supporters are I think. They have not accepted the old way no longer works.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The wider electorate did not know Corbyn on the anti Semitic issue, and they thought that Labour would honour the views of the electorate over Brexit. The fact is that the MPs must have seen the car crash coming, but the membership were in denial.

Or the MP’s didn’t listen to the members who voted him in as Leader, then the MP’s in areas they lost failed to listen to the people in their area.

There are a few reasons why Labour lost this GE, Corbyn himself being one of them, but I’d disagree when it came to MP’s, if anything they failed to carry out what the public wanted and saying the public were in denial is actually the opposite to what’s happened, the public knew/know exactly what they/we want.

If they fail once again to listen to the public, then once again, the public will not back them.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Or the MP’s didn’t listen to the members who voted him in as Leader, then the MP’s in areas they lost failed to listen to the people in their area.

There are a few reasons why Labour lost this GE, Corbyn himself being one of them, but I’d disagree when it came to MP’s, if anything they failed to carry out what the public wanted and saying the public were in denial is actually the opposite to what’s happened, the public knew/know exactly what they/we want.

If they fail once again to listen to the public, then once again, the public will not back them.

I think this is in conflict right now. Momentum and people who bought into Corbyn flooded the membership and effectively took over Labour. They got the leader they wanted, the shadow cabinet they wanted. The voters however, particularly in many solid red areas, did not buy into that and saw through him and his policies. Many MP's tried to tell the leadership of the issues they were having back in their constituencies but they were ignored. What if you have an MP who agree with their constituents, listened to them but the overall party stance had not listened? The MP is then stuffed, as was often shown. This does not apply to all cases but it does to many who were caught up in this.

If the membership are in conflict with the voters a party has real problems.

Chris Bryant was on the tv this morning and spoke very well, MP in S.Wales. He stated that the next leader first of all has to understand why they lost. If they don't accept the real reasons, not the reasons the leadership are peddling, then Labour will go further back next time. He is saying pretty much the same as you, and me.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I think this is in conflict right now. Momentum and people who bought into Corbyn flooded the membership and effectively took over Labour. They got the leader they wanted, the shadow cabinet they wanted. The voters however, particularly in many solid red areas, did not buy into that and saw through him and his policies. Many MP's tried to tell the leadership of the issues they were having back in their constituencies but they were ignored. What if you have an MP who agree with their constituents, listened to them but the overall party stance had not listened? The MP is then stuffed, as was often shown. This does not apply to all cases but it does to many who were caught up in this.

If the membership are in conflict with the voters a party has real problems.

Chris Bryant was on the tv this morning and spoke very well, MP in S.Wales. He stated that the next leader first of all has to understand why they lost. If they don't accept the real reasons, not the reasons the leadership are peddling, then Labour will go further back next time. He is saying pretty much the same as you, and me.

Agreed, far too simplistic to keep blaming Corbyn, hence my question over the 2017 GE result, lots happened between 2017 and today, to take it back to 2016 is a red herring.

Saw an article last night(I’ll look for it) saying boris’s support from traditional tories actually declined, he only saw a 2% rise in votes over TM (who was described as the worst PM we’ve had) and given the swing from Labour voters in essence it meant he was less popular than her and it’s overshadowed by the amount of seats he won.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Or the MP’s didn’t listen to the members who voted him in as Leader, then the MP’s in areas they lost failed to listen to the people in their area.

There are a few reasons why Labour lost this GE, Corbyn himself being one of them, but I’d disagree when it came to MP’s, if anything they failed to carry out what the public wanted and saying the public were in denial is actually the opposite to what’s happened, the public knew/know exactly what they/we want.

If they fail once again to listen to the public, then once again, the public will not back them.

The public were not in denial...some in the Labour Party I think still are.

But I do not know the answer.

I am by instinct and intent a Labour voter. That Labour did not have an earthly in my constituency and the LibDems I knew would put up a good show gave me an easy way to solve my problem - I wimped out of making the hard decision.

If I had been in a constituency where Labour has the sitting MP or had a chance of winning the seat I just do not know how I would have voted. Maybe once the fog of the Brexit War has cleared; the Tories are settled into government, and we have seen a budget or two - then things will become clearer. Hopefully also in that timescale the look and feel of the Labour Party and of it's Objectives will be clearer.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Agreed, far too simplistic to keep blaming Corbyn, hence my question over the 2017 GE result, lots happened between 2017 and today, to take it back to 2016 is a red herring.

Saw an article last night(I’ll look for it) saying boris’s support from traditional tories actually declined, he only saw a 2% rise in votes over TM (who was described as the worst PM we’ve had) and given the swing from Labour voters in essence it meant he was less popular than her and it’s overshadowed by the amount of seats he won.

It shows how smart his team, Dominic Cummings in particular were then. They targetted Labour seats, key Labour voters, knowing that their own hard core were unlikely to ship over to Corbyn or Swinson. They were helped by the two of them bombing, both parties need to take note for next time. He did not need to grow his own Conservative vote, simply take enough from Labour. Job done. (this might not make sense but it does to me)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Starting to hear a fair bit of reaching out to Andy Burnham...

 

[Hobbit]

The public were not in denial...some in the Labour Party I think still are.

But I do not know the answer.

I am by instinct and intent a Labour voter. That Labour did not have an earthly in my constituency and the LibDems I knew would put up a good show gave me an easy way to solve my problem - I wimped out of making the hard decision.

If I had been in a constituency where Labour has the sitting MP or had a chance of winning the seat I just do not know how I would have voted. Maybe once the fog of the Brexit War has cleared; the Tories are settled into government, and we have seen a budget or two - then things will become clearer. Hopefully also in that timescale the look and feel of the Labour Party and of it's Objectives will be clearer.

i think comments like “we won the argument” suggest there’s still a bit to go before rock bottom.

If you consider the voters to be buyers and the parties to be suppliers, it’s the buyers that tell the suppliers what they would like to buy. Did Labour listen to its buyers, or did their manifesto and Brexit stance run counter to what the buyers wanted? Was the buyer’s message passed up to central office by the grass roots party workers?