The Next Labour leader

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williamalex1 said:
I think the biggest problem is with illegal entries.
Sad times , but what can we really do to prevent illegals coming here and still be decent human beings.
It looks like the smugglers take advantage of these poor people. And just load them into unsafe boats loaded well to over the safety limit.
In the hope of getting halfway across the channel, then maybe get picked up by the coast guard or Navy and taken to safety and granted asylum.
Our benefits system really needs updating,
IF this is really true :confused: seemingly an immigrant here is entitled to more benefits than a disabled military veteran serviceman and more than our basic pensioner receives, and housed quicker.
I shudder to think what benefits I would get, if I had to illegally enter ANY other country.
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Illegal immigrants get nothing whilst their status is “illegal” if granted asylum they become eligible to benefits equal to their circumstances.

Unfortunately there is a lot of scaremongering and urban myths out there that cause issues.

We’ve always been able to control our borders to non-eu citizens and no party, absolutely no party has ever said they want an open door policy or uncontrolled immigration, that’s another extreme people like to peddle.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/pensioners-or-refugees/#
 
pauldj42 said:
Illegal immigrants get nothing whilst their status is “illegal” if granted asylum they become eligible to benefits equal to their circumstances.

Unfortunately there is a lot of scaremongering and urban myths out there that cause issues.

We’ve always been able to control our borders to non-eu citizens and no party, absolutely no party has ever said they want an open door policy or uncontrolled immigration, that’s another extreme people like to peddle.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/pensioners-or-refugees/#
Click to expand...
Do you really think there isn't any illegals working here and not paying taxes , and some claiming and receiving benefits fraudulantly.
 
williamalex1 said:
Do you really think there isn't any illegals working here and not paying taxes , and some claiming and receiving benefits fraudulantly.
Click to expand...
Probably hundreds if not thousands, but again, they are illegal and committing fraud, to which any government can take the appropriate action.
Not only have the Police been cut by 20,500 since 2010, there has been 60 Police Stations shut and cuts to the UK Border Force.
We should absolutely be clamping down on illegal immigrants and protecting our borders, but to do that you need to fund the resources and ensure if caught we can take appropriate action.
 
Anyhow, im not discussing illegals, thats a completely different issue. I stand by my previous post that we have a choice, no control of immigration or control of it. As I said most countries in the world have some form of immigration control and many use a points based system due to it being the most practical and fairest.
Its no good using the arguement that it wont stop immigration, its not supposed to, no one with any sense suggests we have a zero policy but one that supplies our needs.

For the record I am not saying people are suggesting an open door policy, thats gross exaggeration, I have merely posed the question: if people dont want a controlled immigration system then do they want an uncontrolled one? It only requires an answer and explanation but I havent seen one yet.

However, this is getting a bit off the subject of a new labour leader.
 
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Seems the Labour war/battle has begun, earlier than i thought. Thought John Mcdonnels apology was sincere, thought Corbyns apology was typically pathetic. Mind you what with me being a stupid Midlands voter, what would I know.
 
SocketRocket said:
Anyhow, im not discussing illegals, thats a completely different issue. I stand by my previous post that we have a choice, no control of immigration or control of it. As I said most countries in the world have some form of immigration control and many use a points based system due to it being the most practical and fairest.
Its no good using the arguement that it wont stop immigration, its not supposed to, no one with any sense suggests we have a zero policy but one that supplies our needs.

For the record I am not saying people are suggesting an open door policy, thats gross exaggeration, I have merely posed the question: if people dont want a controlled immigration system then do they want an uncontrolled one? It only requires an answer and explanation but I havent seen one yet.

However, this is getting a bit off the subject of a new labour leader.
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Whether we like it or not, I think that having a coherent policy will be one of the most significant actions in making Labour electable. The (ex) core Labour electorate has been affected more significantly than most by the policy of the last 10-15 years.
 
Er isn't this a thread to guess the next LP leader?

IMO. if the LP want to get back to challenging the Tories then Lisa Nandy would be an excellent choice. She's very level headed and although left leaning knows that the LP MUST have more sensible policies to attract the voting public (see what I did there?) back to them.
 
First and foremost the 'top table' needs some balance by getting folk from the 'real world' back around it... Regular folk can struggle with the thoughts/ideas of the academics and political classes that have taken the party away from the people...
 
SocketRocket said:
Labour's future is in their own hands, nothing much to do with the Conservatives. They need a complete rebuild otherwise life in the political wilderness will become their self created punishment.
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Agreed...

The Labour Party is like an addict - it has been in denial since the 24th June 2016 - 3 days after the referendum. On that date Labour MPs voted 172-40 against Corbyn - they could see what was coming.

How does Labour recover - how does an addict start their recovery? They first have to reach their rock-bottom. Has Labour hit their rock-bottom? I think so.

But the addict has then to understand that they can only break their addiction through complete acceptance of the need to change - and understanding that what has to change is everything they say and do - and to be able to do that they have to completely change the way they think about themselves; those around them, and the world out there as it impacts them - to become the person they should be - that they once were.

It is clear to me that not all in the Labour Party have yet accepted they need for complete change. Like the addict on his way to a relapse, they believe that if they don't pick up or use for a few months, and do and say the right things for a while, then all will be well and they'll be able to drink or use like a normal person - and go back to how they were - just a bit less extreme.

But they won't. They will gradually go back to their old ways - the ways that led to the disaster in the first place - and new disaster will soon follow. That is the way of it.

And I give one very simple example, that might seem petty but for me is the sort of thing that is important as a demonstration of a willingness to change. When I hear Corbyn or his like talking about 'comrades' my head says NO. So though traditional dyed-in-the-wool Socialist/Marxists would hate it - Labour and it's MPs and supporters can start by dumping the use of that word. It harks back to past times - these times are gone - it stopped working. It will never ever again work for those voters Labour need to get back and attract.

How does an addict work on their recovery - how does Labour recover? Through being Honest, Open and Willing to change. Completely.

But first Labour has to accept that it is over - the old ways have failed - totally.

And as said a few days ago - Lisa Nandy is, for me, someone I could vote for very easily. So delighted she is considering standing.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Agreed...

The Labour Party is like an addict - it has been in denial since the 24th June 2016 - 3 days after the referendum. On that date Labour MPs voted 172-40 against Corbyn - they could see what was coming.

How does Labour recover - how does an addict start their recovery? They first have to reach their rock-bottom. Has Labour hit their rock-bottom? I think so.

But the addict has then to understand that they can only break their addiction through complete acceptance of the need to change - and understanding that what has to change is everything they say and do - and to be able to do that they have to completely change the way they think about themselves; those around them, and the world out there as it impacts them - to become the person they should be - that they once were.

It is clear to me that not all in the Labour Party have yet accepted they need for complete change. Like the addict on his way to a relapse, they believe that if they don't pick up or use for a few months, and do and say the right things for a while, then all will be well and they'll be able to drink or use like a normal person - and go back to how they were - just a bit less extreme.

But they won't. They will gradually go back to their old ways - the ways that led to the disaster in the first place - and new disaster will soon follow. That is the way of it.

And I give one very simple example, that might seem petty but for me is the sort of thing that is important as a demonstration of a willingness to change. When I hear Corbyn or his like talking about 'comrades' my head says NO. So though traditional dyed-in-the-wool Socialist/Marxists would hate it - Labour and it's MPs and supporters can start by dumping the use of that word. It harks back to past times - these times are gone - it stopped working. It will never ever again work for those voters Labour need to get back and attract.

How does an addict work on their recovery - how does Labour recover? Through being Honest, Open and Willing to change. Completely.

But first Labour has to accept that it is over - the old ways have failed - totally.

And as said a few days ago - Lisa Nandy is, for me, someone I could vote for very easily. So delighted she is considering standing.
Click to expand...

Good grief it must be Christmas and good will to all - I find myself agreeing with you (mostly) :unsure::unsure:
 
Colonel Bogey said:
IMO. if the LP want to get back to challenging the Tories then Lisa Nandy would be an excellent choice. She's very level headed and although left leaning knows that the LP MUST have more sensible policies to attract the voting public (see what I did there?) back to them.
Click to expand...

Radical thought.... :)

I just searched a few of her interviews.... 40 years old, seems quite sensible, will have to look further.... loved her interview berating for the BBC for insisting she did an interview about "northern economy" in London!" Hope she understands there are two sides to an equation! If so, she has a chance. Currently left of centre politicos only see "MORE FUNDING" as the solution to any issue.

And, I think SILH has nailed it above..... Merry Christmas indeed!
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Agreed...

The Labour Party is like an addict - it has been in denial since the 24th June 2016 - 3 days after the referendum. On that date Labour MPs voted 172-40 against Corbyn - they could see what was coming.

How does Labour recover - how does an addict start their recovery? They first have to reach their rock-bottom. Has Labour hit their rock-bottom? I think so.

But the addict has then to understand that they can only break their addiction through complete acceptance of the need to change - and understanding that what has to change is everything they say and do - and to be able to do that they have to completely change the way they think about themselves; those around them, and the world out there as it impacts them - to become the person they should be - that they once were.

It is clear to me that not all in the Labour Party have yet accepted they need for complete change. Like the addict on his way to a relapse, they believe that if they don't pick up or use for a few months, and do and say the right things for a while, then all will be well and they'll be able to drink or use like a normal person - and go back to how they were - just a bit less extreme.

But they won't. They will gradually go back to their old ways - the ways that led to the disaster in the first place - and new disaster will soon follow. That is the way of it.

And I give one very simple example, that might seem petty but for me is the sort of thing that is important as a demonstration of a willingness to change. When I hear Corbyn or his like talking about 'comrades' my head says NO. So though traditional dyed-in-the-wool Socialist/Marxists would hate it - Labour and it's MPs and supporters can start by dumping the use of that word. It harks back to past times - these times are gone - it stopped working. It will never ever again work for those voters Labour need to get back and attract.

How does an addict work on their recovery - how does Labour recover? Through being Honest, Open and Willing to change. Completely.

But first Labour has to accept that it is over - the old ways have failed - totally.

And as said a few days ago - Lisa Nandy is, for me, someone I could vote for very easily. So delighted she is considering standing.
Click to expand...
i don't think its that simple, the political landscape of the UK has changed and not in a good way
 
patricks148 said:
i don't think its that simple, the political landscape of the UK has changed and not in a good way
Click to expand...

I know. But the Labour Party has to first understand what it has to do to survive in the political landscape of today if it is to grow and recover. I am afraid that politics today seems to be moving to satisfy any individual's feelings of entitlement and wealth...rather than what is for the wider and greater good. But that is the landscape.

There is a great biblical parable (sorry) about what is required to survive and grow. There is nothing to be gained from sowing seeds where the soil looks good but is thin and underneath is rock. The seed will germinate and shoots will grow - it will look good, but the soil is thin and roots cannot penetrate the rock - so first sign of drought the shoots wither and die. Neither is there any point in sowing where there are weeds, as the weeds will strangle the new shoots. You can weed the soil - but we know how difficult it is to clear weeds - they come back. You sow where you manage to find deep and good soil - soil that suits your seeds and that will sustain growth of new shoots. And what isn't in the parable - if you find that the good soil is not what best suits your seeds - you either change your seeds or work on the soil to make it suitable. You decide which approach is best for you - what change is the right thing to do, what you can change, and so determine that which is the most sustainable.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Agreed...

The Labour Party is like an addict - it has been in denial since the 24th June 2016 - 3 days after the referendum. On that date Labour MPs voted 172-40 against Corbyn - they could see what was coming.

How does Labour recover - how does an addict start their recovery? They first have to reach their rock-bottom. Has Labour hit their rock-bottom? I think so.

But the addict has then to understand that they can only break their addiction through complete acceptance of the need to change - and understanding that what has to change is everything they say and do - and to be able to do that they have to completely change the way they think about themselves; those around them, and the world out there as it impacts them - to become the person they should be - that they once were.

It is clear to me that not all in the Labour Party have yet accepted they need for complete change. Like the addict on his way to a relapse, they believe that if they don't pick up or use for a few months, and do and say the right things for a while, then all will be well and they'll be able to drink or use like a normal person - and go back to how they were - just a bit less extreme.

But they won't. They will gradually go back to their old ways - the ways that led to the disaster in the first place - and new disaster will soon follow. That is the way of it.

And I give one very simple example, that might seem petty but for me is the sort of thing that is important as a demonstration of a willingness to change. When I hear Corbyn or his like talking about 'comrades' my head says NO. So though traditional dyed-in-the-wool Socialist/Marxists would hate it - Labour and it's MPs and supporters can start by dumping the use of that word. It harks back to past times - these times are gone - it stopped working. It will never ever again work for those voters Labour need to get back and attract.

How does an addict work on their recovery - how does Labour recover? Through being Honest, Open and Willing to change. Completely.

But first Labour has to accept that it is over - the old ways have failed - totally.

And as said a few days ago - Lisa Nandy is, for me, someone I could vote for very easily. So delighted she is considering standing.
Click to expand...
Please explain the 2017 GE result.
 
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