The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[upsidedown]

So out in the Algarve and played with a 16 year Dutch lad and his Mum who is a professional and he was off +2.4 with aspirations to play on the Tour. Bombs it miles with the driver but not always straight. Readily admitted the driver was not the problem but his short game and putting. I got up and down more than him as did his Mum, although when we had both missed the fairways he was a lot further down the hole than me !! No doubt his short game will come.
Move on 2 days to the O'Connor course where they had just had a Boys Championship and the pins were in horrible positions on slopey Fast greens and despite driving the ball exceptionally well I ended up with just 28 points but had 40 putts where my average is 28-30 normally .
So for me it's the putting everytime

 

[pendodave]

know your left to right distribution width,

I'm not sure whether I should be ashamed of this or not, but although I have a pretty good idea of my front/back distances are with each club, I have no idea what my left/right distances are.
I guess that means I am unlikely to solve golf any time soon!

 

[Voyager EMH]

If you drive it 15 yards further than you were doing last year then you should see your handicap coming down.

But if you want to win a comp on any one day - you gotta hole dem putts!

Well, that is my experience.

When I look at a lot of other amateurs, I can see that an increase in driving distance will not be easily achievable, but an improvement in putting and chipping could see their handicaps come down significantly
Some of those don't want to reduce their handicaps and don't like chipping and putting.

 

[Shooter McPowick]

Putt for dough!

Didn’t play much December and January and the first few rounds were utter rubbish in the mid 80’s. Mostly due to 3 putting more than I’d care to admit but averaged 36 putts a round. Tee to green wasn’t that great.

A few weeks into playing more regularly and while I’m more consistent tee to green it’s not vastly better on average. Drives are the same distance, FIR and GIR about the same but putting averages 30 a round.

That uninspiring 85 is now breaking 80. Putter was on fire a couple of weeks ago and shot 76.

Putter is king!

 

[Birdie2]

Interesting question. Would suggest most amateur golfers would have more success scoring better or lowering handicap through working on short game <100 yards and in. Its simply easier to work on than finding 20 yards off the tee

 

[IanM]

At this point I always say that the better player you are, the more important holing putts is. The worse you are, well, you don't always get to putt!

 

[Backsticks]

Even if a 240yd drive leaves a wedge I’m not having it that driver - wedge saves 12-14 shots per round over driver - 8 iron

I dont think anyone is saying it will. It will save 5 or 6. You would need to drive 260 to get another 6 or so. At that point you are approaching or at scratch.

 

[Captainron]

I dont think anyone is saying it will. It will save 5 or 6. You would need to drive 260 to get another 6 or so. At that point you are approaching or at scratch.

I should be a plus handicapper

 

[Region3]

I dont think anyone is saying it will. It will save 5 or 6. You would need to drive 260 to get another 6 or so. At that point you are approaching or at scratch.

Although not quoted, that was in response to a post saying 20 extra yards off the tee would enable a 16 h.i. to get to low single figures.

I also don’t think it would save 5 or 6. If that were true then taking 20yds off me would make me 5 or 6 shots worse and I don’t think it would.

 

[Region3]

Would you rather Rory took your drives or Rory took your putts?

Although this is rather a no brainer question, it’s a more interesting question under the right circumstances.

Round my course, having Rory hit my tee shots would save more shots than him doing the putting.

Round somewhere with really tricky greens with tour speed and pin positions (Augusta?) I think it’s debatable whether drives or putts would be better.

 

[Backsticks]

Although not quoted, that was in response to a post saying 20 extra yards off the tee would enable a 16 h.i. to get to low single figures.

I also don’t think it would save 5 or 6. If that were true then taking 20yds off me would make me 5 or 6 shots worse and I don’t think it would.

For handicaps in that range, the gain from the driving alone is approx 0.25-0.3 per drive. On a 14 drive course, about 4 shots. The gain on length benefits more than the drive itself though. I dont remember the number but in the region of another shot gained. So 20 yards driving distance gain, gains on approach, and so sum total, about 5 or 6 shots. As a guideline.

 

[Region3]

For handicaps in that range, the gain from the driving alone is approx 0.25-0.3 per drive. On a 14 drive course, about 4 shots. The gain on length benefits more than the drive itself though. I dont remember the number but in the region of another shot gained. So 20 yards driving distance gain, gains on approach, and so sum total, about 5 or 6 shots. As a guideline.

I am a big stats and numbers person so I will stop disagreeing with you.

I still disagree though

Out of curiosity, in a purely hypothetical match, who would your money be on?

Off level, a scratch hc with nothing longer than a 3 iron vs a 16 hc and he can walk all his tee shots 40 yards further on (but on the line they were hit rather than towards the green)

 

[Region3]

I should be a plus handicapper

I’m on the PGA Tour app looking to see what time you’re off

 

[Backache]

I think its more to do with the variability between putting and long game. We hackers arent that different with our putter to the pro. Take the 90 shooter and the 72 shooter. Nobody on the planet is taking an extra putt per hole. The long game is the real separator.
Practical Golf website (not the classic John Jacobs book) is good on the topic.
One analysis he has comparing a scratch versus 20 handicapper shows the make up of those 20 shots difference :
Tee : 4 shots
Approach : 9 shots
Short game : 3.5
Putting : 3.5

(the gain in approach coming both from being closer to the hole from the drive, and being longer hitter, being able to take a short club to the green)

So he could transform into a world class putter, and the 20 handicapper would still only turn into a 16 or 17.

I suspect you or he have got this wrong, the whole point of strokes gained which is where I suspect this analysis is from is that the variables are independent of each other so there is no gain in approach from being closer to the hole from the drive as you are measuring that in the driving stat.

 

[Backsticks]

I suspect you or he have got this wrong, the whole point of strokes gained which is where I suspect this analysis is from is that the variables are independent of each other so there is no gain in approach from being closer to the hole from the drive as you are measuring that in the driving stat.

Yes, possibly just poorly written by myself. But not certain where the line is drawn.
Yes, the distance to the green benefit is in the driving gain. Thereafter, the approach gain comes from a) if a drive is 40 yards longer say, that might give a 2 club lower benefit to success to the next approach shot, and b) being a faster club speed gives the player a further club reduction.
Whether a) is in the driving stat or approach stat I am not sure. The sum of the two is what matters for the overall swing speed gain I guess though.

 

[garyinderry]

There has to be a grey area somewhere too.

I'd rather be 200 in the fairway than 190 in the rough.

Pro might favour the shorter shot but I'd have way more chance with a clean lie from that distance.

 

[evemccc]

Although this is rather a no brainer question, it’s a more interesting question under the right circumstances.

Round my course, having Rory hit my tee shots would save more shots than him doing the putting.

Round somewhere with really tricky greens with tour speed and pin positions (Augusta?) I think it’s debatable whether drives or putts would be better.

I would unequivocally have Rory or any Masters-competing pro golfer take my putts around Augusta, and I would drive

I think people often overlook how fast and how tough US greens are and esp those at Augusta

I have putted on a masters-speed indoor putting facility and it’s insane — and that was without any contours

There isn’t really rough at Augusta and the trees are easy to go through if I missed a fairway. The extra shots I would take to get to the green I feel would easily be compensated for by a crappy amateur putter four-putting about those greens Vs Rory

 

[Captainron]

I think I am fairly well qualified to answer this question seeing as I hit it miles but putt like Stevie Wonder with Parkinsons.

Bombing drives is great and all but sinking putts is better scoring wise.

I would lose 10 yards off the tee to make more putts

 

[jim8flog]

Drives - he hits it further and straighter than anyone I know.

We obviously have different memories of his driving accuracy although at the time he was one of the longest hitters.

 

[Albo]

Here’s an interesting thought/experiment.
Last year on PGA tour from what I can find Taylor Montgomery was leading putter when it came to putts per round at 27, average across the tour was 32 (this is only from a quick google search)
I would if you played 2 balls, one your own ball from the tee, but all you have to do it get the ball on the green 18 times and add 27 to your score.
With the 2nd ball, move it forward 20 yards on each hole after your tee shot but play the ball out from that point.

Which ball would score best?
Would the result be different if you used your average of 32 putts?
How would scoring on par 4 and 5 differ from par 3?