The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[Backsticks]

On the premise of the thread, I would say there isnt really a debate. Anyone thinking distance isnt everything can read or listen to some interesting research and analysis on the matter from a variety of sources. For those informed, the matter is conclusive. I wasnt arging the case as such on the other thread, just referring to what is taken as read pretty much in elite golf these days. There is no debate at that level on this specific question.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

A few responses about getting up and down, and saving scores with putting.
If your long game was better you may be having those putts for birdies rather than to save you from the

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Keep the ball on the short stuff and in play and you will do well

A poor drive can ruin a hole just like poor putting can

 

[Backsticks]

I doubt that because the longer you hit the ball the narrower the fairways become.

Taking this as the way I guess you mean it, that effectively your chances of more shots being off the fairway than on it, it is factually correct. But the fallacy lies in thinking that more shots on the fairway, at the expense of distance will help you score better than more shots off the fairway even if longer. The reverse is actually true. The number of extra balls that will be off the fairway is more than regained by the distance advantage of the ball that are on the fairway, and even some that are off it - better to be closer to the green in the rough than further from the green and in the rough. Yes, there will be instances, where you pay a penalty. But the gains of the longer hitting strategy more than outweigh those penalty events. And, the gain from playing easier or a shorter/safer club are much smaller than most people think. Lou Stagner's twitter is very good for some stats and facts on this topic. Recommended.

 

[Hobbit]

Imagine you’re the world’s best putter but taking 4 or 5 shots to reach the green. Imagine you’re the world’s best driver but 3 putting every green. The game is made up of a number of shots. Driving, long irons & fairway woods, good wedge play and good putting. Without a decent game in every department you’re not going to score well. You can hide behind a handicap that actually covers part of your game but, truthfully, over 18 holes driving for show putting for dough is a load of Rolex.

My putting used to be amazing, along with a red hot short game but every so often I could land the ball 2 fairways away. My putting numbers went up, which might suggest my game was struggling, but my driving improved and I was finding it easier to hit greens. However, the distance from the pin was rising because the GIR improved.

I suppose, take the handicap out of the equation and then look at why your scores aren’t as good as they could be. You could well be surprised.

 

[Backsticks]

Imagine you’re the world’s best putter but taking 4 or 5 shots to reach the green. Imagine you’re the world’s best driver but 3 putting every green. The game is made up of a number of shots. Driving, long irons & fairway woods, good wedge play and good putting. Without a decent game in every department you’re not going to score well. You can hide behind a handicap that actually covers part of your game but, truthfully, over 18 holes driving for show putting for dough is a load of Rolex.

My putting used to be amazing, along with a red hot short game but every so often I could land the ball 2 fairways away. My putting numbers went up, which might suggest my game was struggling, but my driving improved and I was finding it easier to hit greens. However, the distance from the pin was rising because the GIR improved.

I suppose, take the handicap out of the equation and then look at why your scores aren’t as good as they could be. You could well be surprised.

I think its more to do with the variability between putting and long game. We hackers arent that different with our putter to the pro. Take the 90 shooter and the 72 shooter. Nobody on the planet is taking an extra putt per hole. The long game is the real separator.
Practical Golf website (not the classic John Jacobs book) is good on the topic.
One analysis he has comparing a scratch versus 20 handicapper shows the make up of those 20 shots difference :
Tee : 4 shots
Approach : 9 shots
Short game : 3.5
Putting : 3.5

(the gain in approach coming both from being closer to the hole from the drive, and being longer hitter, being able to take a short club to the green)

So he could transform into a world class putter, and the 20 handicapper would still only turn into a 16 or 17.

 

[Jigger]

all stats seem prove that people can save more shots off the tee than they can on. The green. Based on my course, I agree with that 100% but I would say that putting is skill that can be more easily strengthened with practice.

 

[KenL]

Sorry, but a top pro is a way better putter than a hacker.

Played with plenty low hcp who don't hit the ball that great but their short game is great.

Another recent story was a bomber who, in a strong wind, was said to be through the back on our 9th hole. 500 yards from the yellow tee in play. Member witness said it was true!

Guy is off 10. I'd rather be able to putt.

 

[jim8flog]

Would you rather Rory took your drives or Rory took your putts?

Would you rather Tiger Woods take your drives or take your putts?

The other side of the coin

 

[evemccc]

Obvs greater distance helps

But it all depends on the length of hole — having a 9 iron vs a 6 iron as a second shot is a huge help to getting on the green in reg.

But having a 55 degree wedge over a 9 iron (effectively a three clubs gap still) to me isn’t anything like as big an advantage as the 9i-6i scenario was….so it’s relative and based on the context of hole length

If I could have a golfing ‘superpower’ it would be to be an ace putter however

 

[Backsticks]

The below quite consistent.
Averages of course, but the correlation between distance from the tee and handicap is unavoidable.

Two things may have change :
1) We now have a lot of data that didnt exist previously. Even data from the pros was limited 20 years ago. There was virtually none for handicap golfers, let alone high ones. And it has the detail to show correlations between distance, accuracy, and scoring, and handicaps.
2) Some of the old lines about driving for show putt for dough now known to be incorrect, were probably a closer run thing in the past. When clubs and balls hit it shorter, the range was smaller, and precision with pre 2000 clubs and balls was a trickier task. Probably rewarding precision and safer tactics more than is the case today. Whether that is a good or bad or simply difference is a different discussion.





Shot Scope big data :


Arcos :

 

[jim8flog]

I find it hard to determine these days.

When I was at my best I was a long hitter and a very good putter.

Now I am no longer a big hitter but still a very good putter but my handicap has increased.

I used to maintain that a a wedge out of the rough was an easier shot than a fairway from the middle of the fairway so it really depends on how badly in to the rough you are after a long drive.

I know what got me to a mid single figure handicap was a really good short game rather than outright length. What would have probably got me to low single figures was hitting the greens more often so the single putts were for birdies rather than par.

 

[Backsticks]

Obvs greater distance helps

But it all depends on the length of hole — having a 9 iron vs a 6 iron as a second shot is a huge help to getting on the green in reg.

But having a 55 degree wedge over a 9 iron (effectively a three clubs gap still) to me isn’t anything like as big an advantage as the 9i-6i scenario was….so it’s relative and based on the context of hole length

On this specific one, another shiboleth that has bitten the dust is the idea of a layup distance or gains being relative to the club as you descibe. You may be an exception, but the data is again clear, closer to the green wins every time.

 

[evemccc]

On this specific one, another shiboleth that has bitten the dust is the idea of a layup distance or gains being relative to the club as you descibe. You may be an exception, but the data is again clear, closer to the green wins every time.

You may have misread my post….I said that, comparatively, having a 9 iron vs a 6 iron is IMO a greater benefit than having a SW Vs a 9 iron (I’m not disputing that a SW < 9 iron)

Many amateurs can be on green in reg with a 9 iron - with perhaps only a slightly bit further from the flag than if they had hit a SW

Whereas I think many amateurs would be on a green with a stock 9 iron — but with a 6 iron? Far less likely

 

[JonnyGutteridge]

Everyone has their own game, but I can’t stand being in the rough or heather. I’m not strong enough or fast enough (or probably steep enough) to hit proper shots out of bad lies and I need to be in the fairway to hit proper golf shots. So I will occasionally sacrifice some distance and hit a hybrid or 3 wood to make that happen.

However, if I’m leaving myself 190+ from the green I’m also struggling to be honest because that’s a weakness in my game. So there’s no point hitting my hybrid if it’s going to leave me 190+, because it’s probably a bogey anyway. I might as well crack driver, if I miss I’ll chip out and then give it a go from inside 150.

You have to play your own game on the golf course. We’re not pros, and there is no point leaving yourself with shots you can’t hit all day long (and it’s a good way to have an unenjoyable/stressful day).

A lad I play with drives the ball well, but he’s not long - often has 200 into par 4s. He’s so bad with his woods that he tops it, hits it into greenside bunkers or short sides himself - and he makes a double. He is better when he misses the fairway, plays up to a more favourable yardage as he can strike the ball from the fairway and make a bogey.

 

[Tashyboy]

Always felt that the comment
“ Drive for show, putt for Dough” should have “Mr up and down in two” somewhere.
A bad drive and iron *** can be recovered with an “up and down in two”.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Would you rather Tiger Woods take your drives or take your putts?

The other side of the coin

Drives - he hits it further and straighter than anyone I know.

 

[pendodave]

Always felt that the comment
“ Drive for show, putt for Dough” should have “Mr up and down in two” somewhere.
A bad drive and iron *** can be recovered with an “up and down in two”.

I've always find 3 off the tee pretty unrecoverable with the flat stick, but maybe that's just me...
Always

 

[HeftyHacker]

I know what got me to a mid single figure handicap was a really good short game rather than outright length. What would have probably got me to low single figures was hitting the greens more often so the single putts were for birdies rather than par.

Kind of where I am (or want to be) with my game. I'm long enough (without being a big hitter as such) but I reckon if my game <50yards game was better I could shave 3 or 4 shots off my handicap and get me comfortably into single figures.

As it stands I miss too many greens with my longer irons and don't have the short game to get me up and down - despite my putting being decent enough.

 

[Deleted member 25575]

As has been mentioned the DECADE system covers all this nicely, probably worth a read/watch if anyone is interested.
But going back to the statements about 3 off the tee or being in the trees etc, again have a look at some of the YouTube vids on DECADE driving strategies, it’s pretty simple, know your left to right distribution width, know your driver carry distance, go to google maps and measure out from tee box to your driver distance on each tee, the measure left to right according to your dispersion pattern, and hit driver as often as you can as long as big danger isn’t lurking in that measured zone. If it is look at the next club down etc and so forth until you find a safe club, if that safe club is say a 7i you may want to hit driver anyway as you’re already loosing too much hitting 7i so worth the risk.
The longer you get with driver, you have to do the same thing, some tee shots may change others may not