The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[GG26]

I am going to be playing 3 games over the coming week, a fourball, another fourball and then a threeball comp.

I know all 8 chaps I am going to be playing with very well.
They all have the latest type of drivers and hit the ball about as far as they can - very little room for improvement.
They have spent a lot of time AND MONEY achieving this.

Most of them could do with improving their 75, 50 and 25 yard shots and their putting.
This is my experience of the majority of amateurs that I play with.
They know all about length being king - they have embraced this and run with it - but they have not focussed a sufficient amount on their short game and putting.

I know that I lose most of my shots with my short game and had my first chipping / pitch shot lesson a week ago. Going to take a fair bit of practice to embed the new way of doing things, but I can already see the benefit with some shots.

 

[Crow]

I know that I lose most of my shots with my short game and had my first chipping / pitch shot lesson a week ago. Going to take a fair bit of practice to embed the new way of doing things, but I can already see the benefit with some shots.

Your bunker play was certainly good yesterday!

 

[RichA]

I admire your attempts to explain to people that population statistics are not the same as how your mate played yesterday, but I think you're fighting a losing battle.
We're in the world of "my granny smoked 20 a day and lived to 90" or "it's cold this morning so climate change is nonsense" on large chunks of this thread.

Slightly tangentially, I do find those pods a great resource. Having a realistic idea of what is 'normal' is a real asset when both thinking about how to improve at golf, managing on-course decisions and rationalising post-shot emotions.

Knowing the mean average of a million shots by a hundred thousand golfers of various handicaps into a green from 150 yards doesn't tell you what normal is either though.
Some of my friends and I have very similar handicaps and very different strengths and weaknesses. The same is true for the low handicap guys I know. I would imagine that can be extrapolated across the entire golfing population.
I listen to the Crossfield/Stagner/Chalmers podcast too and enjoy it, but generalisation of individuals by statistics is only useful for generalisations. It doesn't even necessarily apply to a majority.
If you're in the mid-high handicap range where you're capable of good shots but totally unreliable then the best way to reduce your handicap is to get better at golf, not focus on strokes gained in any single area of your game.

 

[clubchamp98]

I am going to be playing 3 games over the coming week, a fourball, another fourball and then a threeball comp.

I know all 8 chaps I am going to be playing with very well.
They all have the latest type of drivers and hit the ball about as far as they can - very little room for improvement.
They have spent a lot of time AND MONEY achieving this.

Most of them could do with improving their 75, 50 and 25 yard shots and their putting.
This is my experience of the majority of amateurs that I play with.
They know all about length being king - they have embraced this and run with it - but they have not focussed a sufficient amount on their short game and putting.

Yep.
most high cappers are thrashing the driver on our practice ground.
Most of the lower guys are on the short game area.

Thats been my observations for almost 40 yrs nothing much changes.!

 

[Springveldt]

Yep.
most high cappers are thrashing the driver on our practice ground.
Most of the lower guys are on the short game area.

Thats been my observations for almost 40 yrs nothing much changes.!

Isn’t that because most of the lower handicap guys already have enough length though while the higher handicap ones are still chasing length and control?

If nothing much changes why are the golfing bodies seriously considering bifurcation of the golf ball? They can see the data and it’s only going to get worse as all the young lads coming through college and the Korn Ferry are hitting it even further than the current PGA Pro’s. They are all being taught distance, distance, distance then control.

When stats and pods are telling people distance is king it’s isn’t advocating standing on the first tee and swinging out your boots. It’s advocating you do that in training/practice and then your “normal” swing gets quicker as a benefit of it.

 

[Springveldt]

So, if you take let’s say a group of golfers going away on a trip or a typical bunch who regularly play together then the longest hitters will always be the lowest handicappers in the group?

At this point I’m not sure if people aren’t understanding statistics or are just being obtuse about the subject now.

 

[Neilds]

At this point I’m not sure if people aren’t understanding statistics or are just being obtuse about the subject now.

All statistics prove is that you can prove anything with statistics

 

[Backsticks]

Knowing the mean average of a million shots by a hundred thousand golfers of various handicaps into a green from 150 yards doesn't tell you what normal is either though.

Thats exactly what millions of shots tell you.
What your mate does, or the low guy in your club, or who you saw on the practice range, does not.

 

[clubchamp98]

Isn’t that because most of the lower handicap guys already have enough length though while the higher handicap ones are still chasing length and control?

If nothing much changes why are the golfing bodies seriously considering bifurcation of the golf ball? They can see the data and it’s only going to get worse as all the young lads coming through college and the Korn Ferry are hitting it even further than the current PGA Pro’s. They are all being taught distance, distance, distance then control.

When stats and pods are telling people distance is king it’s isn’t advocating standing on the first tee and swinging out your boots. It’s advocating you do that in training/practice and then your “normal” swing gets quicker as a benefit of it.

I am talking about ams not tour pros.
it’s what I see every day. Most have been playing for donkeys years ,so if they havnt got it now it’s not happening.
ams are just not consistent enough to be influenced by stats. ( I am not anyway)


Bifurcation won’t affect 95% of ams as they don’t hit it hard enough to make a difference!

 

[Backsticks]

In my experience when people try and hit it farther they normally give it a thrash, miss the sweet spot and generally hit it wider with less distance.
To those who say length is king, that may be so, only if you can find it.

You will not simply achieve a step change in one shot. Which is also why some people think trying for distance = mishits and wides. They have seen or experienced trying a one off big shot. To bite a corner, or carry a stream or bunker they know is on their limit. And they make a mess of it, and are shorter than normal.

Thats is not what we are talking about.

Gaining distance is about committing specifically to practice swinging faster, and hitting it further. Then, like any new skill, you can take it to the course.

 

[Backsticks]

The point being that he could realistically improve his putting in a relatively short amount of time, but would find striving to achieve a lot of extra driving distance a much more difficult task.

There are certainly putting gains for everyone to make. And putting gains can be made quickly, feel improved, reading improved. But they are limited. And will not change anyones general golf level - lets say brackets of about 5 shots. Plus. Scratch to 4. 5 to 10. 11 to 15 etc. Putting will inch you better within the bracket.
Distance moves you down the brackets.

 

[Backsticks]

Yep that pretty much sums up what a lot of people seem to believe.

Length is an advantage if combined with control but it is a disadvantage without control. It's not difficult to understand but for some reason lots of people don't get it.

The fallacy in that thinking is that distance and control are a negative trade off.

 

[Backsticks]

Length is obviously useful but doesn't give much advantage on my course...the extra roll just gives the ball more chance to roll down the slopes into the trees
The right amount of length gives an enormous advantage

Length is far more than driving. Whatever your course, you will gain. You can play a hybrid from the tee and still put it 230, without the driver. Then you are hitting a 9 instead of a 7. Your chances of hitting the green, and probable distance to hole are improved. You are gaining shots. Your score is lowering.

 

[Springveldt]

I am talking about ams not tour pros.
it’s what I see every day. Most have been playing for donkeys years ,so if they havnt got it now it’s not happening.
ams are just not consistent enough to be influenced by stats. ( I am not anyway)


Bifurcation won’t affect 95% of ams as they don’t hit it hard enough to make a difference!

The ones that have been playing for donkeys year and not improving, are they actually doing anything about it? My limited experience of it is that those are the type of guys that don’t practice anymore and are happy with where they are at.

Even then, I’d bet money that if they got a set of superspeed sticks and swung then as hard as they can 3 times a week for 8 weeks that their swing speed would be faster and they would be hitting the ball further at the end of it, regardless of their age.

If someone like me can gain speed by doing nothing extra but that I’m sure others can too.

 

[bobmac]

Thats is not what we are talking about.

That's exactly what we are talking about, club golfers trying to hit the ball farther by trying to hit it harder.

I get it, you think distance is everything but repeating the same old claim doesn't make it true.
Some people want to hit it 300yds to lower score, others are happy with 250 and a good short game.
I suggest that just because not everyone agrees with you it doesn't make them wrong, just different.

 

[Springveldt]

The fallacy in that thinking is that distance and control are a negative trade off.

Yep, it’s usually the other way round. Gaining speed means you are swinging with better technique or better sequencing and as a result when you get used to the speed you likely be more accurate as well.

 

[Springveldt]

That's exactly what we are talking about, club golfers trying to hit the ball farther by trying to hit it harder.

I get it, you think distance is everything but repeating the same old claim doesn't make it true.
Some people want to hit it 300yds to lower score, others are happy with 250 and a good short game.
I suggest that just because not everyone agrees with you it doesn't make them wrong, just different.

I don’t think it’s about trying to hit it harder on the course, you are trying to hit it harder when you are training, then when you go on the course you find that your “normal” swing is faster. That’s what happened to me when I did the training, didn’t feel like I was swinging any harder at all yet was moving the club 8mph faster.

 

[RichA]

Thats exactly what millions of shots tell you.
What your mate does, or the low guy in your club, or who you saw on the practice range, does not.

No. Millions of shots tells you a statistical average and nothing about the individuals.
Some 18 handicappers are where they are because they are short of distance due to physical limitations.
Some 18 handicappers are where they are because they are short of distance due to poor technique.
Some 18 handicappers are where they are because they are spraying the ball left and right even though they have good distance.
Some 18 handicappers are where they are because for every 2 good shots there's a fat or a thin that goes 50 yards.
That's just 4 examples of very different golfers in the same handicap category whose statistics are homogenised to produce your "normal", which will be meaningless as a learning tool for each of them.

 

[Jason.H]

Flushed a drive on the 18th today, measured it with gps. Exactly 233 carry, just popped out of its pitch mark. Gentle wind off the left not hurting nor helping. Normally carry 220ish. Short for a 3 index
Roll on the summer and 20/30 yards of roll.

 

[bobmac]

I don’t think it’s about trying to hit it harder on the course, you are trying to hit it harder when you are training, then when you go on the course you find that your “normal” swing is faster. That’s what happened to me when I did the training, didn’t feel like I was swinging any harder at all yet was moving the club 8mph faster.

I'm well aware of the theory thank you, but I'm also aware of what most golfers do in the real world and that's not practice