The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[Deleted member 29109]

I believe a vast number of amateurs could lower their handicap by one shot or more by improving their putting.
Give me a typical 28-handicapper and let me take all his putts and we would be a 26-handicapper or better. That is my observational experience.
It is not "difficult" to improve putting, if your putting is poor.

And they would still be a high handicapper.

You couldn’t take a 5 down to 3 with putting improvement alone, unless they were spectacularly bad at putting to start with.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Exactly, ask Bryson. So many players just swing wildly with their driver and spray it, but then complain their handicap isn't coming down. I play with quite a few lads like that.

It won him a US open!

 

[Backsticks]

Not if you consistently hit it into the boondocks.

Recently played a scratch match against a low SF guy who hits the ball 300yds but sometimes is a bit wayward; my tee shots were going about 220yds. I lost 3:2, but walking off he commented how impressed he was by my driving, not long at all but inevitably bang in play every time, and that put his game under pressure. Every time he stood on the tee he knew that his length was not as important as keeping out of trouble. Driving is very important, distance less so.

Data trumps anecdote though.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

It’s funny how those that think putting is still the most important factor in good scoring always comment on swinging wildly and hitting the long ball into trouble.

Just because someone is hitting it further doesn’t mean they are necessarily swinging it wildly.

The reason many shorter hitters are so accurate is because they don’t hit it far enough to reach a lot of the trouble (myself included).

 

[Voyager EMH]

And they would still be a high handicapper.

You couldn’t take a 5 down to 3 with putting improvement alone, unless they were spectacularly bad at putting to start with.

Yes I agree. If that 5-handicapper was as poor a putter as a typical 28-handicapper, then he really and truly could reduce his handicap by two strokes by improving putting alone.

 

[Tashyboy]

It’s funny how those that think putting is still the most important factor in good scoring always comment on swinging wildly and hitting the long ball into trouble.

Just because someone is hitting it further doesn’t mean they are necessarily swinging it wildly.

The reason many shorter hitters are so accurate is because they don’t hit it far enough to reach a lot of the trouble (myself included).

That may be the case on your course but it is the exact opposite on ours. Some of the holes are tree lined from the tees. OOB from tees down one side. Distance be it long or short when offline on some holes isn’t a factor . however on some holes going off yellows takes out the dangers on a few holes as even the shortest will be past them. Easiest way to gain yardage off the tee.Play off the yellows and enjoy.

 

[Backsticks]

Some of the resistance to accepting the fact that distance determines your golf level comes from old thinking. Before modern data collection and analysis. But I would say some also comes from a resistance to accept the bad news that is perceived as. That single figures will not be reached unless you can carry a drive further than 200 shatters a dream for many. Chipping, putting improvement, and putting it in the fairway more, will not achieve that.

On the optimistic side though, is the breakthrough knowledge, that anyone can hit it further. Previously almost regarded as something one was born with. You either hit it long, or didnt. But that myth has been blown up in the last decade. With the additional bemefit, that faster is also better. Faster is more, not less accurate and repeatable. Which does go against the unscientiic guessing that passed for golf theory historically. Some are just still stuck there.

 

[Hobbit]

“The great drive for dough putt for show“​

I’m inclined to say you do both for dough. Best driver in the world but a serial 3 putter isn’t going score well, and the same in reverse.

Go back 15 years, and for many years before that, I could be wild off the tee but I won my fair share of longest drives. I’d guess that my FIR was less than 50% but my short game, inc putting was pretty hot hence hovering around 4,5,6 for many years. Hit a 8-9 iron to a green from semi/light rough would still either get me on the green or at least near enough to stand a good chance of getting up and down.

Age has seen a significant loss in distance, probably at least 40 yds down on the good old days, but my FIR in recent yrs is around 80%. What had been an 8 or 9 iron out of the rough has become a 5 or 6 iron off the fairway. Firing in from so far out means the birdie chances are fewer and from further from the hole. Still putting and chipping well but the h’cap is creeping north.

What would improve my game? Another 40 yds, and I’d accept being in the rough as the really good days didn’t see me in the rough too often.

 

[clubchamp98]

“The great drive for dough putt for show“​

I’m inclined to say you do both for dough. Best driver in the world but a serial 3 putter isn’t going score well, and the same in reverse.

Go back 15 years, and for many years before that, I could be wild off the tee but I won my fair share of longest drives. I’d guess that my FIR was less than 50% but my short game, inc putting was pretty hot hence hovering around 4,5,6 for many years. Hit a 8-9 iron to a green from semi/light rough would still either get me on the green or at least near enough to stand a good chance of getting up and down.

Age has seen a significant loss in distance, probably at least 40 yds down on the good old days, but my FIR in recent yrs is around 80%. What had been an 8 or 9 iron out of the rough has become a 5 or 6 iron off the fairway. Firing in from so far out means the birdie chances are fewer and from further from the hole. Still putting and chipping well but the h’cap is creeping north.

What would improve my game? Another 40 yds, and I’d accept being in the rough as the really good days didn’t see me in the rough too often.

Spot on .
I could have written that about myself.
I am a good chipper and putter .
irons are good but one more club required these days.
but my loss of length off the tee is the major factor to my scoring.
we have two 420+ yd par fours and I get on maybe One in ten.
I can’t reach the par fives anymore in two so lay up to 80 yds that is the length I practice most now.

 

[Backsticks]

“The great drive for dough putt for show“​

I’m inclined to say you do both for dough. Best driver in the world but a serial 3 putter isn’t going score well, and the same in reverse.

Go back 15 years, and for many years before that, I could be wild off the tee but I won my fair share of longest drives. I’d guess that my FIR was less than 50% but my short game, inc putting was pretty hot hence hovering around 4,5,6 for many years. Hit a 8-9 iron to a green from semi/light rough would still either get me on the green or at least near enough to stand a good chance of getting up and down.

Age has seen a significant loss in distance, probably at least 40 yds down on the good old days, but my FIR in recent yrs is around 80%. What had been an 8 or 9 iron out of the rough has become a 5 or 6 iron off the fairway. Firing in from so far out means the birdie chances are fewer and from further from the hole. Still putting and chipping well but the h’cap is creeping north.

What would improve my game? Another 40 yds, and I’d accept being in the rough as the really good days didn’t see me in the rough too often.

The question isnt that one doesnt matter. Of course both driving/distance, and putting influence the score
More a debate on which has a greater influence. The old line came down on the aide of putting. It is that conclusion that has been debunked, and that distance, not just driving, although that is its biggest component, is more influential than putting.

In the same way that handicap and driving distance correlate very closely for handicap golfers, dollars earned on the PGAT have been shown to correlate very well to driving distance also.

 

[Neilds]

Not sure if some of the top drivers are anywhere near the top of the money list - I got bored scrolling down looking for their names!
This list is from the CBS website and is for 2022-23 apparently

 

[r0wly86]

I think the big question is how close you are from the pin after your approach shot.

You can be the greatest putter in the club, but if your are consistently missing the green or are 50 feet from the hole, then you're not going to 1 putt enough if at all, so score really low. Compared to being consistently 10 feet away from the hole after your approach shot, most people will 2 putt from there, occasional 1 putt and occasional 2 putt.

So what will help with getting close with the approach shot, absolutely, proximity to the green, so length off the tee. The standard distribution from a wedge is going to be smaller than a 7 iron. Quality of strike with your irons, and control of the ball will be another.

I would rather be 10 yards further away but have greater control with my short irons than 10 yards closer and be less certain over the ball with an iron.

Imurg got it spot on in the first page, it just depends on what the risk is. On the course I grew up on, for about 13 of the hole missing the fairway by 10 yards was a lost ball, in that scenario accuracy trumps distance every time, I would rather be 30 yards back than be 3 off the tee. But playing Royal North Devon, I could hit the ball in absolutely any direction, find my ball and have a shot in. In that scenario, just smack the driver every hole you can.

If you can 2 putt each hole, and hit ever hole GIR you would play of scratch. I don't think 2 putting makes someone a great putter, a decent one perhaps but nothing sensational. But if you miss every GIR then you would have to 1 putt every green in order to score the same

 

[Doon frae Troon]

How old is that data? I can't imagine many 10 handicappers are using 5 irons from 150 yards now.

I know loads of 25 handicappers that would use an 8 iron for a 150 yard shot though.
Hardly any finish anywhere near the green.

50 years ago my standard 150 yard club was a 7 iron.

 

[Orikoru]

I know loads of 25 handicappers that would use an 8 iron for a 150 yard shot though.
Hardly any finish anywhere near the green.

50 years ago my standard 150 yard club was a 7 iron.

Most 10 handicappers are using 8 iron for 150 yards I'd have thought, particularly when their 8 irons will be between 32-35 degrees these days. For me personally it's still a 7 iron - related to what you've said, I tend to club for the back of the green unless the pin is right at the front, or there's trouble behind (which is rare).

 

[Springveldt]

Yep. And that's just golf though isn't it. Those with the technical ability to consistently drive 250+ are also the ones who are more comfortable with the longer irons, but actually only need a 9 or a wedge for the second shot.
I see and hear the data about marginal gains averaged out over thousands of golfers but I think the difference between mid handicap and low handicap is a chasm rather than something you can hop across with a little hard work. It's those 400+ par 4s that are the biggest problem for me and will probably stop me ever getting close too breaking 80 with any regularity.
Roll on summer and the extra free 30 yards off the tee.

From my personal pov the difference between a 15 and a 5 isn't that great. I should know, I've done it. I took up the game again around 2016 (had maybe played 10 rounds in the previous 25 years), just turned 40 and my first handicap under congu was 15. Granted I did go for a bunch of lessons before handing in my 3 cards.

7 years later my index is 4.1 (was 3.7 until last night) and I practice way less now that I did for the first 4 years back playing. I wouldn't even say I practice, I just play 2 rounds per week. I haven't been to a driving range since before COVID, haven't set my practice net in the garden since before COVID etc. The main difference between my game before COVID and after COVID is I'm now consistently longer off the tee and I give myself a shot to the green way more now. That's about it really, my mid/long irons are still hit and miss, my chipping has always been solid and my putting is so so, blows hot and cold like most others.

Now the difference between a 5 and a scratch is a chasm imho. I feel the chances of me getting to scratch as it stands are zero but if I gained 20 yards on my drives that carries over into my irons I'd be able to reach all the par 5's at my place in 2, I'd be able to hit the longer par 4's with mid irons rather than long irons/woods etc. It would at least give me a fighting chance to get lower.

 

[Springveldt]

It won him a US open!

Also won Matt Fitzpatrick a US Open when he found 10mph ball speed and 20 yards of distance.

 

[sjw]

I know loads of 25 handicappers that would use an 8 iron for a 150 yard shot though.
Hardly any finish anywhere near the green.

50 years ago my standard 150 yard club was a 7 iron.

I'm probably a 25 'capper and I'd use an 8 iron. I'll miss left and right, but rarely short.

 

[Zakkker]

I believe a vast number of amateurs could lower their handicap by one shot or more by improving their putting.
Give me a typical 28-handicapper and let me take all his putts and we would be a 26-handicapper or better. That is my observational experience.
It is not "difficult" to improve putting, if your putting is poor.

Yes, training solves this issue. But it's hard to do without a good coach. I'm an amateur golfer, and some things are difficult for me. And I think if I had more time to golf, my skills would grow faster. How much time per week do you think I need to spend in golf to confidently develop my skills?
Hi all.

 

[Jason.H]

And they would still be a high handicapper.

You couldn’t take a 5 down to 3 with putting improvement alone, unless they were spectacularly bad at putting to start with.

I’m down to 3 and my putting is still not great. Still miss loads of good birdie chances and have the odd 3 putt.
I think if a pro took all my putts there’d be 5 shots knocked off every round.

 

[evemccc]

From my personal pov the difference between a 15 and a 5 isn't that great. I should know, I've done it. I took up the game again around 2016 (had maybe played 10 rounds in the previous 25 years), just turned 40 and my first handicap under congu was 15. Granted I did go for a bunch of lessons before handing in my 3 cards.

7 years later my index is 4.1 (was 3.7 until last night) and I practice way less now that I did for the first 4 years back playing. I wouldn't even say I practice, I just play 2 rounds per week. I haven't been to a driving range since before COVID, haven't set my practice net in the garden since before COVID etc. The main difference between my game before COVID and after COVID is I'm now consistently longer off the tee and I give myself a shot to the green way more now. That's about it really, my mid/long irons are still hit and miss, my chipping has always been solid and my putting is so so, blows hot and cold like most others.

Now the difference between a 5 and a scratch is a chasm imho. I feel the chances of me getting to scratch as it stands are zero but if I gained 20 yards on my drives that carries over into my irons I'd be able to reach all the par 5's at my place in 2, I'd be able to hit the longer par 4's with mid irons rather than long irons/woods etc. It would at least give me a fighting chance to get lower.

How are you getting that extra distance off the tee?

1) increased clubhead speed through gym work or swingsticks?

2) Improved centreness of strike, meaning the ball is generally going further and straighter (hence further if it’s bouncing on the short stuff and not long rough) with a similar Swing speed as before

3) Buying a Fargiveness Driver

4) All of above