The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[Tashyboy]

Unless you're already pretty good inside 150 yards but your average drive on your course's 9 x 400ish yard par 4 holes always leaves you about 160-170 yards out.
One size doesn't fit all in golf. We're all different.

I was trying to put into words exactly that. being good inside 150 yards means for a lot of golfers their third shot and that could be anything from 100 yards and less. However an extra 10 yards means 150-160 yd and that fits in with the GIR argument.
However I would suggest if you do not have the swing and cannot drive it 250 yd on a 400 yd hole, the Chances of you hitting the green regular from 150 are also slim.

 

[Deleted member 31467]

Get better at golf? Good advice. I'll take that on board.

Good, you'll have better results than chasing distance.

 

[Backsticks]

However I would suggest if you do not have the swing and cannot drive it 250 yd on a 400 yd hole, the Chances of you hitting the green regular from 150 are also slim.

This is correct. A 15 hc will only hit a 150 yd green about 1 in 5. A scratch golfer 1 in 2 - and he will be hitting it more than 250. If you are shorter than 250, then you just wont hit a green from 150 better than 1 in 3, and in all probability not even that. GIR figures improve the longer you hit it.

Some data below. The higher GIR - which do correlate well with score and golf level - come from hitting shorter clubs to the green, not from precision with a given club. And the longer hitter wins one both shots - the longer drive leaves a shorter second, and for that second shot distance they take a lower club than the shorter hitter. Its why handicaps essentially correlate to how far you hit a given club. And the driver is as good, or better an indicator as any.

From 150 yards :


https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/expectation-management-150-yard-golf-shot/

 

[RichA]

I was trying to put into words exactly that. being good inside 150 yards means for a lot of golfers their third shot and that could be anything from 100 yards and less. However an extra 10 yards means 150-160 yd and that fits in with the GIR argument.
However I would suggest if you do not have the swing and cannot drive it 250 yd on a 400 yd hole, the Chances of you hitting the green regular from 150 are also slim.

Yep. And that's just golf though isn't it. Those with the technical ability to consistently drive 250+ are also the ones who are more comfortable with the longer irons, but actually only need a 9 or a wedge for the second shot.
I see and hear the data about marginal gains averaged out over thousands of golfers but I think the difference between mid handicap and low handicap is a chasm rather than something you can hop across with a little hard work. It's those 400+ par 4s that are the biggest problem for me and will probably stop me ever getting close too breaking 80 with any regularity.
Roll on summer and the extra free 30 yards off the tee.

 

[Orikoru]

This is correct. A 15 hc will only hit a 150 yd green about 1 in 5. A scratch golfer 1 in 2 - and he will be hitting it more than 250. If you are shorter than 250, then you just wont hit a green from 150 better than 1 in 3, and in all probability not even that. GIR figures improve the longer you hit it.

Some data below. The higher GIR - which do correlate well with score and golf level - come from hitting shorter clubs to the green, not from precision with a given club. And the longer hitter wins one both shots - the longer drive leaves a shorter second, and for that second shot distance they take a lower club than the shorter hitter. Its why handicaps essentially correlate to how far you hit a given club. And the driver is as good, or better an indicator as any.

From 150 yards :

View attachment 47710
https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/expectation-management-150-yard-golf-shot/

How old is that data? I can't imagine many 10 handicappers are using 5 irons from 150 yards now.

 

[Deleted member 25575]

I thought we had already worked out that we will never come to an agreement on this subject.
While I do love reading the comments with a wry smile, it’s not something we will ever agree on

 

[Tashyboy]

I thought we had already worked out that we will never come to an agreement on this subject.
While I do love reading the comments with a wry smile, it’s not something we will ever agree on

It’s not and it’s certainly not an argumentative point of view from me. More a there’s no chance of me hitting it 250 yd and then hitting a 150 yd green regularly. But that’s me and I know I play with lads who can hit 240 and 150. Bottom line everyone is different.

 

[Crow]

Being pedantic, I know, but I'm scratch and my 150 club, all things being equal (wind, ground conditions etc), is a five iron.

Ben Hogan's 5 iron yardage was 155.

I like to think mine is 160, but 150 is probably closer to the truth.

 

[Backsticks]

How old is that data? I can't imagine many 10 handicappers are using 5 irons from 150 yards now.

That would be a real 5 iron, as many pros still play. Not a 5 iron that has a 7 cast/forged into it.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Taylormade Sim2 Max OS 8-iron 31.5°
Ping i10 6-iron 30.5°
1961 Forgan Powerpakt 5-iron 30°

I reckon that I can easily hit them all about 150 yards.
And this doesn't surprise me.
Can you guess why?

 

[Newtonuti]

Taylormade Sim2 Max OS 8-iron 31.5°
Ping i10 6-iron 30.5°
1961 Forgan Powerpakt 5-iron 30°

I reckon that I can easily hit them all about 150 yards.
And this doesn't surprise me.
Can you guess why?

Extra gym work?

 

[Backsticks]

Taylormade Sim2 Max OS 8-iron 31.5°
Ping i10 6-iron 30.5°
1961 Forgan Powerpakt 5-iron 30°

I reckon that I can easily hit them all about 150 yards.
And this doesn't surprise me.
Can you guess why?

Is it because the Sim2 is so packed with 'tech', the result of all the millions TM spend in research every year to enable you to hit it so much further ? I think that must be it. The engineering behind getting an 8i to go as far as an old 5i is just phenomenal. Am I right ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Whilst it is obviously true that my final shot on a hole will determine my score for the hole, and so it will be for every hole and in aggregation will my score for the round be determined - it is also true that if I cannot hit a fairway then in the final reckoning the putt I hole to determine my score may be irrelevant. The phrase only applies if the putts being holed actually matter towards winning some dough, if that is the player‘s objective, and the player gets his ball to the green in a number of shots that enable a putt to matter. To that end the phrase has competent and decent driving built in as a given, OK for the pros, much less so for us hcap ams.

In any competition (but especially matchplay) - on any hole I put more weight on the importance getting a decent, not showy, drive away than I do on my ability to hole the putt to complete the hole. I do not neglect my putting, nor do I discount the importance of it to a successful round, but I know that successfully completing any task with the minimum fuss or delay, requires me to start out in the correct direction. I still have to successfully and as efficiently as possible complete all the steps, but I do not wish to prolong the task by going wrong at the outset.

And so if I have the flashiest all singing all dancing navigation aid, but I neglect understanding the purpose of the navigation aid and neglect learning how to use it, then I undermine my ability to complete the walk in the fewest number of steps, no matter what I do subsequently.

 

[Backsticks]

Whilst it is obviously true that my final shot on a hole will determine my score for the hole,

This is not really the case. A tap in does not determine, as in have an influence on, your score. The variability in a tap in is negligible to zero. The variability of your tee shot is much higher, so has a much stronger determining influence on your score.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Ben Hogan's 5 iron yardage was 155.

I like to think mine is 160, but 150 is probably closer to the truth.

…and very often it still is…

 

[Deleted member 15717]

It is completely wild that there are still folks that don’t think distance is a huge advantage.

Lou Stagner is on the latest Sweet Spot podcast, and has access to the whole Arccos database with 575 million golf shots logged in it. The overwhelming point is distance is the greatest separator and the easiest way to get handicaps lower. You don’t even need to hit more fairways. a successful tee shot is one where it gives you a chance of hitting the green with your second rather than chipping sideways etc.

hitting the ball an extra 10 yards can gain you one stroke on its own. you can’t improve your putting that much to gain one stroke that easily.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This is not really the case. A tap in does not determine, as in have an influence on, your score. The variability in a tap in is negligible to zero. The variability of your tee shot is much higher, so has a much stronger determining influence on your score.

By ‘determines‘ I simply meant factually and as a single action to complete the hole my score is not determined until I have holed out.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It is completely wild that there are still folks that don’t think distance is a huge advantage.

Lou Stagner is on the latest Sweet Spot podcast, and has access to the whole Arccos database with 575 million golf shots logged in it. The overwhelming point is distance is the greatest separator and the easiest way to get handicaps lower. You don’t even need to hit more fairways. a successful tee shot is one where it gives you a chance of hitting the green with your second rather than chipping sideways etc.

hitting the ball an extra 10 yards can gain you one stroke on its own. you can’t improve your putting that much to gain one stroke that easily.

Not if you consistently hit it into the boondocks.

Recently played a scratch match against a low SF guy who hits the ball 300yds but sometimes is a bit wayward; my tee shots were going about 220yds. I lost 3:2, but walking off he commented how impressed he was by my driving, not long at all but inevitably bang in play every time, and that put his game under pressure. Every time he stood on the tee he knew that his length was not as important as keeping out of trouble. Driving is very important, distance less so.

 

[Newtonuti]

Not if you consistently hit it into the boondocks.

Exactly, ask Bryson. So many players just swing wildly with their driver and spray it, but then complain their handicap isn't coming down. I play with quite a few lads like that.

 

[Voyager EMH]

It is completely wild that there are still folks that don’t think distance is a huge advantage.

Lou Stagner is on the latest Sweet Spot podcast, and has access to the whole Arccos database with 575 million golf shots logged in it. The overwhelming point is distance is the greatest separator and the easiest way to get handicaps lower. You don’t even need to hit more fairways. a successful tee shot is one where it gives you a chance of hitting the green with your second rather than chipping sideways etc.

hitting the ball an extra 10 yards can gain you one stroke on its own. you can’t improve your putting that much to gain one stroke that easily.

I believe a vast number of amateurs could lower their handicap by one shot or more by improving their putting.
Give me a typical 28-handicapper and let me take all his putts and we would be a 26-handicapper or better. That is my observational experience.
It is not "difficult" to improve putting, if your putting is poor.