The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[Springveldt]

How are you getting that extra distance off the tee?

1) increased clubhead speed through gym work or swingsticks?

2) Improved centreness of strike, meaning the ball is generally going further and straighter (hence further if it’s bouncing on the short stuff and not long rough) with a similar Swing speed as before

3) Buying a Fargiveness Driver

4) All of above

Mostly just Superspeed training. I bought them back in 2019 and did them for about 7 weeks during the 2019/2020 winter. It took my swing speed from around 95mph to averaging 104mph on Trackman. Could push it to 109mph but strike suffered. Now I do them for a couple of weeks at the start of the season to "retain" that speed. I started again a couple of weeks ago and my first session I could only get the light green stick to 109mph on my radar but 2 days ago I had it back to 124mph, with the blue at 118mph and the heavy red at 114mph which is around what they were when I was measured at 104mph on Trackman. Due another session this evening. My accuracy usually suffers for a week or 2 while doing Superspeed but then I get used to swinging slightly faster.

If you saw me you would know it's not gym work. I used to train a lot in my 20's so I'm a fairly "bulky" guy but haven't stepped foot in a gym since before covid. One of the lads I played with last night hits it way past me and he showed me a video of him doing his gym work were he was deadlifting 120KG for a new PB. I then showed him a video of me from 4 years ago doing a set of 5 with 182.5KG so it's not all about strength.

Driver is an Epic Flash which I've had for years so clearly not a Fargiveness one since they only came out this year.

 

[evemccc]

Mostly just Superspeed training. I bought them back in 2019 and did them for about 7 weeks during the 2019/2020 winter. It took my swing speed from around 95mph to averaging 104mph on Trackman. Could push it to 109mph but strike suffered. Now I do them for a couple of weeks at the start of the season to "retain" that speed. I started again a couple of weeks ago and my first session I could only get the light green stick to 109mph on my radar but 2 days ago I had it back to 124mph, with the blue at 118mph and the heavy red at 114mph which is around what they were when I was measured at 104mph on Trackman. Due another session this evening. My accuracy usually suffers for a week or 2 while doing Superspeed but then I get used to swinging slightly faster.

If you saw me you would know it's not gym work. I used to train a lot in my 20's so I'm a fairly "bulky" guy but haven't stepped foot in a gym since before covid. One of the lads I played with last night hits it way past me and he showed me a video of him doing his gym work were he was deadlifting 120KG for a new PB. I then showed him a video of me from 4 years ago doing a set of 5 with 182.5KG so it's not all about strength.

Driver is an Epic Flash which I've had for years so clearly not a Fargiveness one since they only came out this year.

Interesting answer, thanks for the context


The ‘Fargiveness’ option was a joke

 

[Bdill93]

Interesting answer, thanks for the context


The ‘Fargiveness’ option was a joke

Its no joke though - its THE FUTURE OF DRIVING TECHNOLOGY

 

[Deleted member 31467]

I'm looking forward to all the tales of woe after the forum H4H day at Hankley this year. Good luck smashing the ball 200 yards out of the heather

 

[Bdill93]

I'm looking forward to all the tales of woe after the forum H4H day at Hankley this year. Good luck smashing the ball 200 yards out of the heather

I've got tales a plenty from last year at Hayling

 

[CountLippe]

From my personal pov the difference between a 15 and a 5 isn't that great. I should know, I've done it. I took up the game again around 2016 (had maybe played 10 rounds in the previous 25 years), just turned 40 and my first handicap under congu was 15. Granted I did go for a bunch of lessons before handing in my 3 cards.

7 years later my index is 4.1 (was 3.7 until last night) and I practice way less now that I did for the first 4 years back playing. I wouldn't even say I practice, I just play 2 rounds per week. I haven't been to a driving range since before COVID, haven't set my practice net in the garden since before COVID etc. The main difference between my game before COVID and after COVID is I'm now consistently longer off the tee and I give myself a shot to the green way more now. That's about it really, my mid/long irons are still hit and miss, my chipping has always been solid and my putting is so so, blows hot and cold like most others.

Now the difference between a 5 and a scratch is a chasm imho. I feel the chances of me getting to scratch as it stands are zero but if I gained 20 yards on my drives that carries over into my irons I'd be able to reach all the par 5's at my place in 2, I'd be able to hit the longer par 4's with mid irons rather than long irons/woods etc. It would at least give me a fighting chance to get lower.

Agreed. a plus 5 handicapper isn't shooting 5 under every round by peppering the pin with 7 irons, they're on or adjacent to every par 5 in 2 and most the sub 350 yard par 4's in 1 and getting up and down.
I heard/read somewhere that with short irons, the difference in proximity from the hole between elite amateurs and 'good' players isn't that significant except for the distance they hit them, ie 150 yards vs 100 yards with a wedge.

 

[Backsticks]

Mostly just Superspeed training. I bought them back in 2019 and did them for about 7 weeks during the 2019/2020 winter. It took my swing speed from around 95mph to averaging 104mph on Trackman. Could push it to 109mph but strike suffered. Now I do them for a couple of weeks at the start of the season to "retain" that speed. I started again a couple of weeks ago and my first session I could only get the light green stick to 109mph on my radar but 2 days ago I had it back to 124mph, with the blue at 118mph and the heavy red at 114mph which is around what they were when I was measured at 104mph on Trackman. Due another session this evening. My accuracy usually suffers for a week or 2 while doing Superspeed but then I get used to swinging slightly faster.

If you saw me you would know it's not gym work. I used to train a lot in my 20's so I'm a fairly "bulky" guy but haven't stepped foot in a gym since before covid. One of the lads I played with last night hits it way past me and he showed me a video of him doing his gym work were he was deadlifting 120KG for a new PB. I then showed him a video of me from 4 years ago doing a set of 5 with 182.5KG so it's not all about strength.

Driver is an Epic Flash which I've had for years so clearly not a Fargiveness one since they only came out this year.

I think many of the old school, who equate pushing for distance with increased dispersion, are missing the point about speed in itself driving technique improvement. As much as the muscle speed improvement that is assumed to accrue from Superspeed and the likes, I think seeing your club head speed and striving to increase it guides technique modification. Not only do you hit it further - your swing improves its repeatability as well.
The best driver upgrade you make if you have any modern driver from the last 20 years is to get a PRGR or voiceCaddy or the likes.

 

[sunshine]

I believe a vast number of amateurs could lower their handicap by one shot or more by improving their putting.
Give me a typical 28-handicapper and let me take all his putts and we would be a 26-handicapper or better. That is my observational experience.
It is not "difficult" to improve putting, if your putting is poor.

This is true.
But if you took all his drives instead you would probably find that he was going round in 18-20 over.

 

[Backsticks]

This is true.
But if you took all his drives instead you would probably find that he was going round in 18-20 over.

Thats about right.

I posted the following earlier, for 20hc versus scratch, but the tendency and scope for improvement will be similar for the 28hc :

Shots lost :
Tee : 4 shots
Approach : 9 shots
Short game : 3.5
Putting : 3.5

Long game is losing him 13 shots, putting only 3.5. Sure, better putting = better score too. But the gains to be made in the long game are much bigger. Thats why it is length, not putting that is the key differentiator in score.

There is a lot of low hanging fruit to gain distance for the high hc. Its not that you have to carry it 300. But increasing carry from 180 to 200 is well in reach for the majority, and will transform their games for the better.

For most high handicappers, it is not that difficult to get longer.
The equating of hit-it-longer with hit-it-wilder, deters many high hcs from actually trying to hit it further, and they are trapped in 'careful' inhibited swings that are harming rather than helping their overall distance, dispersion, and consistency.

 

[Voyager EMH]

This is true.
But if you took all his drives instead you would probably find that he was going round in 18-20 over.

The point being that he could realistically improve his putting in a relatively short amount of time, but would find striving to achieve a lot of extra driving distance a much more difficult task.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Thats about right.

I posted the following earlier, for 20hc versus scratch, but the tendency and scope for improvement will be similar for the 28hc :

Shots lost :
Tee : 4 shots
Approach : 9 shots
Short game : 3.5
Putting : 3.5

Long game is losing him 13 shots, putting only 3.5. Sure, better putting = better score too. But the gains to be made in the long game are much bigger. Thats why it is length, not putting that is the key differentiator in score.

There is a lot of low hanging fruit to gain distance for the high hc. Its not that you have to carry it 300. But increasing carry from 180 to 200 is well in reach for the majority, and will transform their games for the better.

For most high handicappers, it is not that difficult to get longer.
The equating of hit-it-longer with hit-it-wilder, deters many high hcs from actually trying to hit it further, and they are trapped in 'careful' inhibited swings that are harming rather than helping their overall distance, dispersion, and consistency.

This is not my experience of the last few years of observing higher handicap players.

Many new to the game have embraced all new equipment and technology and smash the ball with their drivers very well. They have learned to do this and enjoy it.
Improvements that they need are the shorter shots and putting to bring their handicaps down.

Others who have been playing for a long time have stable high handicaps, they have practiced hitting it longer and better for a long time, but have never paid much attention to short game and putting practice. This is where they could make a lot of improvement.

 

[Backsticks]

This is not my experience of the last few years of observing higher handicap players.

Many new to the game have embraced all new equipment and technology and smash the ball with their drivers very well. They have learned to do this and enjoy it.
Improvements that they need are the shorter shots and putting to bring their handicaps down.

Others who have been playing for a long time have stable high handicaps, they have practiced hitting it longer and better for a long time, but have never paid much attention to short game and putting practice. This is where they could make a lot of improvement.

Your impression is not supported by the facts though. There will be exceptions in both directions - we could all point to ; the long hitter who cant break 90, or the single figure man who struggles to drive over 200. But they are exceptions. The data is overewhelmingly, pretty much straight line, with very strong statistical correlation, longer means better.

And, that contrary to golf thinking until the last 20 years which was that getting longer almost cannot be done, it can be. Precision, strategy, short game, and putting, were the realistic routes to improvement. This century of best practice is still clung on to by some. But now it is know that working on distance trumps them all. And ultimately best determines what level you will play at.

Crossfield/Stagner/Calmers have just kicked off a podcast series on this very topic.

 

[D-S]

Your impression is not supported by the facts though. There will be exceptions in both directions - we could all point to ; the long hitter who cant break 90, or the single figure man who struggles to drive over 200. But they are exceptions. The data is overewhelmingly, pretty much straight line, with very strong statistical correlation, longer means better.

And, that contrary to golf thinking until the last 20 years which was that getting longer almost cannot be done, it can be. Precision, strategy, short game, and putting, were the realistic routes to improvement. This century of best practice is still clubg on to be some. But now it is know that working on distance trumps them all. And ultimately best determines what level you will play at.

Crossfield/Stagner/Calmers have just kicked off a podcast series on this very topic.

So, if you take let’s say a group of golfers going away on a trip or a typical bunch who regularly play together then the longest hitters will always be the lowest handicappers in the group?

 

[Deleted member 31467]

So, if you take let’s say a group of golfers going away on a trip or a typical bunch who regularly play together then the longest hitters will always be the lowest handicappers in the group?

Yep that pretty much sums up what a lot of people seem to believe.

Length is an advantage if combined with control but it is a disadvantage without control. It's not difficult to understand but for some reason lots of people don't get it.

 

[Teebs]

Played with a guy yesterday off 13 and he could only hit it 180 off the tee. Put massive pressure on the rest of his game which didn't cope (on performance yesterday).

It was a comp off the Whites and he struggled to make the fairway on some holes. He was using an old Yonex driver that just didn't give him much.

 

[patricks148]

Around my home course now length is definitely king.
If you can carry 260 plus you probably now have at least 4 or 5 shot advantage compared to the old layout. Youth and flexibility are part of that though

 

[Imurg]

Length is obviously useful but doesn't give much advantage on my course...the extra roll just gives the ball more chance to roll down the slopes into the trees
The right amount of length gives an enormous advantage

 

[pendodave]

Your impression is not supported by the facts though. There will be exceptions in both directions - we could all point to ; the long hitter who cant break 90, or the single figure man who struggles to drive over 200. But they are exceptions. The data is overewhelmingly, pretty much straight line, with very strong statistical correlation, longer means better.

And, that contrary to golf thinking until the last 20 years which was that getting longer almost cannot be done, it can be. Precision, strategy, short game, and putting, were the realistic routes to improvement. This century of best practice is still clubg on to be some. But now it is know that working on distance trumps them all. And ultimately best determines what level you will play at.

Crossfield/Stagner/Calmers have just kicked off a podcast series on this very topic.

I admire your attempts to explain to people that population statistics are not the same as how your mate played yesterday, but I think you're fighting a losing battle.
We're in the world of "my granny smoked 20 a day and lived to 90" or "it's cold this morning so climate change is nonsense" on large chunks of this thread.

Slightly tangentially, I do find those pods a great resource. Having a realistic idea of what is 'normal' is a real asset when both thinking about how to improve at golf, managing on-course decisions and rationalising post-shot emotions.

 

[bobmac]

In my experience when people try and hit it farther they normally give it a thrash, miss the sweet spot and generally hit it wider with less distance.
To those who say length is king, that may be so, only if you can find it.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I am going to be playing 3 games over the coming week, a fourball, another fourball and then a threeball comp.

I know all 8 chaps I am going to be playing with very well.
They all have the latest type of drivers and hit the ball about as far as they can - very little room for improvement.
They have spent a lot of time AND MONEY achieving this.

Most of them could do with improving their 75, 50 and 25 yard shots and their putting.
This is my experience of the majority of amateurs that I play with.
They know all about length being king - they have embraced this and run with it - but they have not focussed a sufficient amount on their short game and putting.