Swango1980
Well-known member
I pretty much agree with everything Billy has said.
I think most Man Utd fans have been pretty content at how the transfer window has gone this summer, in terms of the types of players they have brought in. And that will have likely been a team effort, with the new management and ETH working together to decide who to bring in and let leave. All transfers are a gamble to some extent, but there at least seems to be stability in that area.
Yesterday was awful. Liverpool are a very aggressive team when out of possession, they don't give you much time. There are a lot of Utd players with scars in confidence, and as soon as things got edgy, you could almost see the panic in their eyes. They are all to blame. The manager needs to take blame and look for solutions. Players need to take responsibility for really poor individual errors. Players need to take responsibility for poor decision making.
As a fan, the games against Fulham and Brighton were no disaster, I actually enjoyed watching most of them. Not like yesterday, or many times last year, where it was horrific from start to finish. Sure, we didn't beat Fulham by 5 or 6 (though plenty of great sides beat poorer sides by a single goal, with the poorer side having a chance or 2 in the game), and we ended up losing to a really poor goal against a decent Brighton side, which was incredibly frustrating and annoying.
I know nobody wants to give Liverpool credit, as the assumption seems to be that if these Man Utd players had a semi decent manager, they would be able to at least match the Liverpool players. But, as much as it pains me to say it, Liverpool still have a decent side, good players, who have been playing consistently well together for a while I would not be shocked if they have the odd game where they get a fairly comfortable win against another top side (although I hope not).
But, now that most of his players are available except a few, I think he now needs to look for a more settled side, and make them more robust. Conceding easy chances are so annoying, but what also frustrates me is the fact that scoring goals seems a real struggle. As soon as Utd get possession, they seem to be in a real rush to score, and usually just give up possession with a rushed pass that was never on, rather than having more patience. ETH needs to take responsibility for that, and the question is also, are some of those players good enough? Does a player like Rashford lack the football intelligence make the right run, play the right ball for any given situation? Not just Rashford, but could question all the players.
I still think the new ownership made the right decision with the manager. They have given themselves the chance to come into the club, and see how it works from the inside. They have looked to stabilize recruitment and many other issues behind the scenes no doubt. They've allowed the possibility that it isn't just the manager that is to blame for Utd being terrible for years. If they correct other problems, they can then make a better informed decision about the manager down the line. I've always said I've no idea that ETH is the magic solution to get Utd back to the top. But, he looked to have a decent record before Utd, and nobody was complaining after his 1st season at Utd. I still suspect there is a very good manager in there, but I agree the jury is out. Can he do it at Man Utd, consistently? He needs to start ASAP. If he did leave Man Utd, I suspect he'd be a lot more employable by other decent clubs compared to the likes of Solskjaer, Southgate, etc.
If Utd lose the next 4 or 5 games, or if they are mid table by Xmas, then I agree it will be very difficult for him to be given any more time to turn things around. But, I'll also not get carried away by a result against Liverpool, a game I've never been confident about, even when Utd were the best side in the PL.
I think most Man Utd fans have been pretty content at how the transfer window has gone this summer, in terms of the types of players they have brought in. And that will have likely been a team effort, with the new management and ETH working together to decide who to bring in and let leave. All transfers are a gamble to some extent, but there at least seems to be stability in that area.
Yesterday was awful. Liverpool are a very aggressive team when out of possession, they don't give you much time. There are a lot of Utd players with scars in confidence, and as soon as things got edgy, you could almost see the panic in their eyes. They are all to blame. The manager needs to take blame and look for solutions. Players need to take responsibility for really poor individual errors. Players need to take responsibility for poor decision making.
As a fan, the games against Fulham and Brighton were no disaster, I actually enjoyed watching most of them. Not like yesterday, or many times last year, where it was horrific from start to finish. Sure, we didn't beat Fulham by 5 or 6 (though plenty of great sides beat poorer sides by a single goal, with the poorer side having a chance or 2 in the game), and we ended up losing to a really poor goal against a decent Brighton side, which was incredibly frustrating and annoying.
I know nobody wants to give Liverpool credit, as the assumption seems to be that if these Man Utd players had a semi decent manager, they would be able to at least match the Liverpool players. But, as much as it pains me to say it, Liverpool still have a decent side, good players, who have been playing consistently well together for a while I would not be shocked if they have the odd game where they get a fairly comfortable win against another top side (although I hope not).
But, now that most of his players are available except a few, I think he now needs to look for a more settled side, and make them more robust. Conceding easy chances are so annoying, but what also frustrates me is the fact that scoring goals seems a real struggle. As soon as Utd get possession, they seem to be in a real rush to score, and usually just give up possession with a rushed pass that was never on, rather than having more patience. ETH needs to take responsibility for that, and the question is also, are some of those players good enough? Does a player like Rashford lack the football intelligence make the right run, play the right ball for any given situation? Not just Rashford, but could question all the players.
I still think the new ownership made the right decision with the manager. They have given themselves the chance to come into the club, and see how it works from the inside. They have looked to stabilize recruitment and many other issues behind the scenes no doubt. They've allowed the possibility that it isn't just the manager that is to blame for Utd being terrible for years. If they correct other problems, they can then make a better informed decision about the manager down the line. I've always said I've no idea that ETH is the magic solution to get Utd back to the top. But, he looked to have a decent record before Utd, and nobody was complaining after his 1st season at Utd. I still suspect there is a very good manager in there, but I agree the jury is out. Can he do it at Man Utd, consistently? He needs to start ASAP. If he did leave Man Utd, I suspect he'd be a lot more employable by other decent clubs compared to the likes of Solskjaer, Southgate, etc.
If Utd lose the next 4 or 5 games, or if they are mid table by Xmas, then I agree it will be very difficult for him to be given any more time to turn things around. But, I'll also not get carried away by a result against Liverpool, a game I've never been confident about, even when Utd were the best side in the PL.
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
A fair post. I agree Liverpool were very aggressive and set a dominant tone early on and United couldn't cope. I think the next games Palace away, Spurs at home and Villa away are important. None would appear easy and were they to lose all three or get one point from nine then EtH could be in trouble. I think these will make or break his tenure
Bdill93
Undisputed King of FOMO
Emery inherited a mess... took 6 months to sort out...
I’m not sure it was anywhere near the scale of the mess at United, but Emery has done a great job nonetheless.
Bdill93
Undisputed King of FOMO
I'm not sure scale is actually much bigger, its still a squad of up to 30 players.
Fanbase is massive yes but the size of a squad is no different, expectation levels are through the roof.
Identifying what you need and addressing the issues within a playing squad is surely job number 1 though, and he's still not there with it..
I don’t know what goes on off the field at Villa, but the issues at United were not just confined to the playing/coaching staff. Almost every area of the business at United was shambolic - business management, recruitment, scouting, you name it, it was a mess.
I suspect the issue, since 2013, is the fact that Ferguson was totally hands on. He was involved everywhere, perhaps too much. In that respect I rather think he was the last of his kind.
Since then, it seems that repeated coaches have been brought in and there seems to have been an expectation that they could simply continue where Ferguson left off. But he was a club manager. Modern coaches don’t seem to take on the same degree of responsibility and, at United, there has been a huge void behind the scenes. It is only since INEOS came on board that it seems the club has come close to filling that void.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
There has to be progress on the pitch
After 2 seasons you would want to see the very minimal an idea of the the style a manager wants to play
When Klopp came in at the end of his first half season his style was there and it was about getting players in to play that style
By the end of his second full season the style was clear , we were in the final of the CL , we had brought in half the players ETH at half the price , the club was 13th in the league the season before under Rodgers it was 6th
It’s 2 fulls seasons ETH has had - spent over £600mil and brought in over 16 players in that period - if he still can’t get show what style he wants to play then something is very wrong. Players make individual errors , that can’t be helped - what can be helped is the manager looking through the games and seeing what’s not working and making adjustments
Man Utd are no better now than they were when he took over - may even be worse
Said it a few times - opposition fans were happy when ETH was staying
After 2 seasons you would want to see the very minimal an idea of the the style a manager wants to play
When Klopp came in at the end of his first half season his style was there and it was about getting players in to play that style
By the end of his second full season the style was clear , we were in the final of the CL , we had brought in half the players ETH at half the price , the club was 13th in the league the season before under Rodgers it was 6th
It’s 2 fulls seasons ETH has had - spent over £600mil and brought in over 16 players in that period - if he still can’t get show what style he wants to play then something is very wrong. Players make individual errors , that can’t be helped - what can be helped is the manager looking through the games and seeing what’s not working and making adjustments
Man Utd are no better now than they were when he took over - may even be worse
Said it a few times - opposition fans were happy when ETH was staying
Swango1980
Well-known member
I suppose you could have said the same about ETH after one season in the PL?
JonnyGutteridge
Newbie
Another referee who clearly hates Chelsea. 3 games out of 3 so far
Booked Fofana and Neto in the first half for first offence, soft fouls in Palace’s half, whilst Kamada managed to give away 5 fouls and didn’t receive a yellow card (4 fouls in the first 20 mins, including 2 in 20 seconds)
Then Will Hughes does this - which based on Neto’s yellow, absolutely HAS to be a sending off.
Palace immediately subbed him off. They scored a few minutes later.
Refs love to influence results.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Are you making the assumption that the club coach / manager has full control in every aspect of the club, or at least full control of the transfers?
I assumed Liverpool ownership and other people behind the scenes had a lot of input into transfers, I wasn't aware Klopp did it all?
Bdill93
Undisputed King of FOMO
I get all of that, but ETH is in charge of the football team, nothing else, within 2 years you would expect the club to have addressed any issues he raises with his playing squad. Don't renew contract's, sell players and buy what he identifies as he needs.
That - or you know, coach the players to play your style of football and improve them.
All of the rest of the mess of United is of course a club issue, but a dilapidated stadium is not on ETH's shoulders, style of play on the field is.
Bdill93
Undisputed King of FOMO
I'm not so sure about that. I think a cup win covered the cracks. Fans unrest has never gone away under ETH.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Nearly every Utd fan I heard was very happy after season one, generally.
3rd in the league and back in Champions League, League Cup win, final of FA Cup and generally did well in Europe apart from a mad end to a game that knocked us out. That was much better than anyone was expecting. Antony has turned into a flop, but generally at the time, everyone seemed much happier about the transfer policy. Brought in Casemiro who was one of the best players in the league, Martinez was excellent at the back and Rashford was scoring for fun, which meant it was much easier to get rid of Ronaldo.
If ETH's season had been like his second season, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have had a second season.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Which one of these players did ETH have no input into signing - think 6 of them at least are players he managed before
Our owners don’t decide on which players are signed - there is a team that do that including the manager
I’m more than happy for ETH to stay as manager - his first season was a false down based on other teams having a poor season
after 2 seasons to not even have a style of play just shows imo a lack of any decent football management
When you have people like Scholes saying he doesn’t know what style of play they are trying to implement then alarm bells must be ringing not to mention the booing as players are substituted
Anyone on here know his style ?
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HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
Liverpool have had the luxury of the manager inheriting everything in place which EtH clearly didn't and while I'd have expected a defined playing style by now I wonder how much has been hampered by new arrivals and injuries. That doesn't excuse what is happening with Casimeiro Rashford and others and he has to take the blame and basically be stronger.
Swango1980
Well-known member
At NO point did I say ETH had zero input in signing players. In fact, if a club just signed players without any input from the manager, I'd be pretty horrified.
My point was that it is a structure of people who are involved in selling and buying players. The manager has an important role to play, as he is the one who should know what the team lacks, and has too much off / doesn't need. He doesn't get the check book out or agree the salaries. He isn't the only one to come up with names. In fact, he probably shouldn't be scouting players at all. He might come up with some suggestions and types of player he needs, but I'm sure a good club with a good scouting network can find potential alternatives, even better alternatives.
Antony hasn't worked out.
United fans have generally been happy with Hojlund and think it is the right kind of profile of player. £72 million a lot though, for a player who hasn't fulfilled potential
Mount has pretty much been injured since he arrived. He had actually started this season well, good pressing which is what I believe ETH wants , then he gets himself injured again
Yoro, who knows, but Utd fans generally seem to think it should be a good buy
Martinez, one of my favourite players. Not great against Liverpool this weekend, but has been excellent generally since arriving. Injured most of last season.
Ugarte, everyone seems to be praising him, so I believe he is a good signing
Onana, jury still out for me. Albeit so many shots he faces are free hits at goal due to presenting easy chances. Had a lot of plaudits before joining Utd.
De Ligt, we shall see, but not many saying he is a bad signing right now.
Zirkzee, same as De Ligt
Mazraoui, has looked good since coming, but time will tell
Malacia was a good understudy to Shaw in his first season, didn't play a single minute last year as he was injured
Eriksen, well we got him for free and most felt he was a good signing, good player.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Missing one expensive player there
And what’s the style
Does he want to press high ?
Press from the centre forward , the wide players ? Press in 2’s or 3’s
Have the full backs overlapping
Is it a single pivot in the middle ? Or a double with Mainoo and Casemiro
Where does Fernandes play ? Is it a free role - a number ten ? Box to box ?
are they looking to have a slow build up , or look to be solid and break quickly
Look to pass from the GK or hit a no 9 long
As for Onana - got to be one of the worst seen in the nets for a while - he appears to have zero idea where his goal is , planted to his line and unable to close any angle down
Martinez is a solid defender but appears to be unable to read a game
de Ligt - he made Maguire look quick on the turn
it’s hard to see any signing where it’s been a success
But that is precisely my point. For the first eighteen months of his tenure, I’m really not sure that was the case. He was clearly far too involved in affairs off the pitch - transfers for a start - and it probably extended to too much involvement in other things which should have been managed by a competent technical director and director of recruitment, neither of which United were blessed with until the INEOS overhaul.
Moyes tried to do it all himself and has since conceded it was too much. He had no idea of the size of the task he was taking on. He has said so. And I think it’s safe to assume the same has gone for every manager since, given the executive management structure has remained pretty much constant throughout.
I didn’t think I’d made any secret of my observations last year, those being that it was perhaps unfair to judge ten Hag until the support structure behind/above him was in place. That was solely because he was being asked to do way more than coach a squad of players. That has only changed very recently.
So now is the time to judge him. Not on the chaos of the last two years, and the wasted years before. And I’m quite content to say it - if he doesn’t start to get it right on the pitch with a settled match day squad and all the support mechanisms in place which only United, of all the top clubs, has lacked until now, then by all means get rid of him.
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
As I said in my earlier reply, away to Palace, home to Spurs and away to Villa are a tough set of fixtures and three losses or even just one win would definitely get alarm bells sounding I think both from the fans and hierarchy
