The Footie Thread

[Orikoru]

Euro 2024: Harry Kane is not England's playmaker - Alan Shearer - BBC Sport

Ex-England captain Alan Shearer says Harry Kane's role against Serbia was different to what we are used to, but just as important for the team.

www.bbc.co.uk

Why don’t you win the Euros with Kane on the bench ? That’s complete nonsense when you look back through history and see the countries that have managed to win the Euros

What Euros have we won with Kane ?

if England were dominant against the top teams and winning the games against the top teams to be able to win these tournaments then there would be no need to change

But they don’t - they consistently get found out against top teams and are unable to adjust or find ways to get past top teams when it matters - that’s a combination off many things including getting the best out of many players

Kane does score goals - a lot , but when it matters against the top teams , not so much

And that's all the manager's job, to get the best out of his top players. Not give up and drop them. You can keep believing we'll do better with Watkins up top if you like, but I don't. If we had a world class striker on the bench ready to replace Kane this would be worth discussing, but we don't, and it isn't. When the team hit their stride and are creating more chances, Kane will score goals. He nearly scored the other night but for an exceptional save.

 

[Swango1980]

And here we go again with stats and links to try and prove a point. Another discussion begins to veer off track. At the end of the day, it may be under instruction, it may be a natural inclination but whatever the reason England won if not that easily and lets see where we go tomorrow. I think the Danes will be a tougher proposition and are capable of beating an under par England performance but there was enough in the opening 30 minutes to indicate that if we get it right and it clicks we can beat anyone.

Ask all English fans (cos the rest of us don't matter) to pick a side to win an important match, with their reputation on the line as the "manager", I reckon more than 95% pick Kane in their first 11. And, in my opinion, the other 5% (or less) are just being very silly

I'd say Kane, Bellingham and Rice are automatic starters for virtually everyone. After there may be a lot more variability in what people would do if they picked the team.

 

[PaulMdj]

I think you have answered your own question there .

We should have brought Gordon on, pushed the whole back line 10yds forward at least. We invited Serbia onto us, brought danger when there didn't need to be. If everyone stays deep the ball is only going to keep coming back at us.

So you honestly believe by bringing Gordon on our Team would of gone, “right, push forward” and Serbs would of gone, “oh no Gordon’s on, drop back 20yds”

We had the ability on the pitch to push the Serb’s back, but the 2nd half we dropped deeper (maybe under Southgate’s instructions) but we also failed to hold on to the ball or find another white shirt, rushed free kicks etc, that is down to the 11 on the pitch and no substitutions would of changed that.

 

[PaulMdj]

I think it’s a combination of Southgate’s ability as a manager , players maybe not being strong enough , and Kane being captain - I wonder if someone else like Rice was captain he would be pushing not just Kane but others up higher

England issues are more than Kane dropping deep , and maybe the reason that happens is because of the set up

England didn’t work with Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes together and someone should have missed out

It’s the same now imo

Foden and Bellingham don’t work together and someone imo needs to miss out

So I think the next team should be


Pickford

Walker
Stones
Guehi
Shaw

Rice
TAA

Gordon
Bellingham
Saka

Kane

Hopefully he’ll start with the same XI, I don’t agree with changing a winning side, if it’s not working by half time, then make changes.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

And that's all the manager's job, to get the best out of his top players. Not give up and drop them. You can keep believing we'll do better with Watkins up top if you like, but I don't. If we had a world class striker on the bench ready to replace Kane this would be worth discussing, but we don't, and it isn't. When the team hit their stride and are creating more chances, Kane will score goals. He nearly scored the other night but for an exceptional save.

Just cast your mind back to the 2016 Euros Final and what happened there

Portugal lost Ronaldo after 15 mins or so

And went on to win

And there are examples of that through our history where teams have won tournaments even missing star players

Kane is a top quality player - but that doesn’t mean that teams can’t win without him , that doesn’t mean that Watkins or Toney can’t come in and help the team as a whole and win matches

That’s the same for any player who people will deem “world class” - tournament football is about getting a result as a team

 

[PaulMdj]

Just cast your mind back to the 2016 Euros Final and what happened there

Portugal lost Ronaldo after 15 mins or so

And went on to win

And there are examples of that through our history where teams have won tournaments even missing star players

Kane is a top quality player - but that doesn’t mean that teams can’t win without him , that doesn’t mean that Watkins or Toney can’t come in and help the team as a whole and win matches

That’s the same for any player who people will deem “world class” - tournament football is about getting a result as a team

Of course we can win without Kane, but at the moment there is absolutely no reason to start without him.

He’s always dropped deep, doing it when we are 1-0 up and he’s trying to help defend from the front is totally different to him wondering around with no purpose.

 

[PaulMdj]

I’d love to be a fly on the wall, has Southgate told him to drop deep? If not why is Southgate not screaming at him from the sidelines to stay high? I’d also question why other team mates aren’t having a word with him if he’s continually coming out of position.

Southgate said in his interview after the game he wasn’t happy with all aspects of the 2nd half performance, I don’t believe he’s going to single out Kane dropping back when we were under so much pressure.

I can’t remember (maybe others can) any instances were we broke and Kane wasn’t leading the line.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

So you honestly believe by bringing Gordon on our Team would of gone, “right, push forward” and Serbs would of gone, “oh no Gordon’s on, drop back 20yds”

We had the ability on the pitch to push the Serb’s back, but the 2nd half we dropped deeper (maybe under Southgate’s instructions) but we also failed to hold on to the ball or find another white shirt, rushed free kicks etc, that is down to the 11 on the pitch and no substitutions would of changed that.

I think the conversations have got a bit tangled here.

Kane should have stayed higher

Gordon has the pace and dynamism to provide an outlet that we missed second half. He also would have run past Kane, important as Kane decided to drop deep

The team stepping higher is down to the defenders, the captain and the manager. Gordon on his own can't do that. It might have triggered that but no, it needed others to see that and react.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Ask all English fans (cos the rest of us don't matter) to pick a side to win an important match, with their reputation on the line as the "manager", I reckon more than 95% pick Kane in their first 11. And, in my opinion, the other 5% (or less) are just being very silly

I'd say Kane, Bellingham and Rice are automatic starters for virtually everyone. After there may be a lot more variability in what people would do if they picked the team.

I totally agree with Kane and Bellingham being certain starters. I don't have an argument with that all. I just find it strange that we are debating Kane dropping deep (and using tweets, links and stats to try and prove a point) when a) we won b) none of us know if it was something Southgate asked c) he felt as a leader it was important to set an example and go looking for the ball

At the end of the day if Kane doesn't play we should have enough quality to get goals either from the striker coming in but all around the team. It doesn't matter a jot how the win comes as long as we keep winning. The point AW is making about losing Ronaldo in the final seems pretty mute seeing as we aren't even there yet

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Hopefully he’ll start with the same XI, I don’t agree with changing a winning side, if it’s not working by half time, then make changes.

Then you will have the same issues with the left hand side and I think Denmark will be a stronger opponent- it was a winning team but it was far from comfortable with the defensive aspect prob being more of a standout

 

[PaulMdj]

I think the conversations have got a bit tangled here.

Kane should have stayed higher

Gordon has the pace and dynamism to provide an outlet that we missed second half. He also would have run past Kane, important as Kane decided to drop deep

The team stepping higher is down to the defenders, the captain and the manager. Gordon on his own can't do that. It might have triggered that but no, it needed others to see that and react.

Kane dropped deep, because the team did, we didn’t have the ball or the ability it seemed for Saka or anyone else to provide an outlet.

Gordon would of come on and defended, if he’d of pushed up on his own he’d of left the defence even more exposed.

 

[PaulMdj]

Then you will have the same issues with the left hand side and I think Denmark will be a stronger opponent- it was a winning team but it was far from comfortable with the defensive aspect prob being more of a standout

None of us had an issue with the first 35 minutes! That XI is more than capable of beating Denmark.

Denmark will be a different type of game and our players will need to stand up.

Like I say, give it to half time and then change if needed.

 

[Hobbit]

How is it “complete rubbish”

Doesn’t matter if someone is “world class” if their play doesn’t suit others around

Kane being “world class” should mean he has the ability to adjust his play to suit the players behind him

You don’t have a system revolve around one player


Is Bellingham inferior to Kane ? Not a chance , he is better , is Foden inferior to Kane - nope

Watkins and Toney may not be “world class” but they may suit the players behind them better and the team may actually work well better

There is zero point calling Kane world class striker when he spends most of his time dropping deep to try and help create chances for a striker that’s not there

England have one of the best forwards in the world, and he’s not getting service. How often are players criticised for not tracking back? Kane tracks back, occasionally too often.

Is Bellingham a striker better than Kane? No he isn’t. Is Foden a better striker than Kane? No he isn’t. Is Kane better than Bellingham & Foden in midfield? No he isn’t. There’s a reason those players are picked to play in the positions they do, and it’s because they are the best for those positions. Your loaded question was rather shallow and does nothing to support your argument.

As for players suiting systems; why wouldn’t you play a system that sees one of the best strikers in the world getting service? That’s a question for Southgate.

 

[Bdill93]

@Bdill93 what are your thoughts on Tim Iroegbunam? It looks like we are buying him, not just agent rumour.

Solid youth prospect, done well on his loans out to championship clubs.

Technically sound, one of those that could be worth 60m in 12 months or could just be a steady career pro.

Well built for his age too! CDM more than anything.

 

[Beezerk]

None of us had an issue with the first 35 minutes! That XI is more than capable of beating Denmark.

Denmark will be a different type of game and our players will need to stand up.

Like I say, give it to half time and then change if needed.

Southgate doesn't do half time subs, it always seems to be after 70/80 minutes

 

[Arthur Wedge]

England have one of the best forwards in the world, and he’s not getting service. How often are players criticised for not tracking back? Kane tracks back, occasionally too often.

Is Bellingham a striker better than Kane? No he isn’t. Is Foden a better striker than Kane? No he isn’t. Is Kane better than Bellingham & Foden in midfield? No he isn’t. There’s a reason those players are picked to play in the positions they do, and it’s because they are the best for those positions. Your loaded question was rather shallow and does nothing to support your argument.

As for players suiting systems; why wouldn’t you play a system that sees one of the best strikers in the world getting service? That’s a question for Southgate.

What’s the point in Kane being a “better striker” when he isn’t in the box to be a striker and instead is stepping on the toes of midfielders that trying to create for him

He won’t get service from the midfield when he himself is sat in midfield - players are looking for a focal point and he isn’t there because he is stood next to them

The comparisons was more about who you build a system around - Kane , Bellingham ? Foden ?

As is said in earlier posts the three together didn’t work - people point to the first 35 mins being very good - Kane had one touch in that period , a lot of the good work was coming from Saka and Bellingham

Bellingham is the main man - Look at the way Real Madrid play him - as that false 9

I think he is just as good as a ten supporting Kane up high

But there needs to be the same outlet from the left as they get from the right - and that means Fodens role needs to either change or be replaced

Get someone like Gordon and Shaw on the left - then you start getting more chances for TAA to ping balls both ways and then allow them to create chances Kane


I don’t think the three work together to get the best out of all three

So it’s 2 from 3 - either Bellingham as a 10 with Kane

Or it’s Bellingham as a False 9 with Foden behind and some wider left

 

[Arthur Wedge]

None of us had an issue with the first 35 minutes! That XI is more than capable of beating Denmark.

Denmark will be a different type of game and our players will need to stand up.

Like I say, give it to half time and then change if needed.

They did play well in those 35 mins and in that time it was Bellingham that was the key player - Kane had one touch of the ball , 2 overall in the first half - but his movement created the space for Bellingham

@Beezerk highlighted it very well with the Portugal scenario and Ronaldo - he is a focal point but Kane is better with his movement off the ball

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Solid youth prospect, done well on his loans out to championship clubs.

Technically sound, one of those that could be worth 60m in 12 months or could just be a steady career pro.

Well built for his age too! CDM more than anything.

I think a CDM is what we are looking for so he could fit the bill. Either to replace Onana or to displace Gueye over the season, who is really too old, his legs are iffy now (not his fault, just age). His age, profile etc is where we are looking right now. Hopefully works out.

 

[AmandaJR]

To even suggest Kane not starting is madness. He is the best striker we have. Simple as.

He does drop deep, and has amazing vision and better passing ability than TAA! If he drops deep then the likes of Bellingham and Foden need to be aware enough to get ahead of him.

Anyway. Can someone message me when the debate, and supporting links/stats etc to drop him from anywhere on the internet, are over??

 

[Hobbit]

What’s the point in Kane being a “better striker” when he isn’t in the box to be a striker and instead is stepping on the toes of midfielders that trying to create for him

He won’t get service from the midfield when he himself is sat in midfield - players are looking for a focal point and he isn’t there because he is stood next to them

The comparisons was more about who you build a system around - Kane , Bellingham ? Foden ?

As is said in earlier posts the three together didn’t work - people point to the first 35 mins being very good - Kane had one touch in that period , a lot of the good work was coming from Saka and Bellingham

Bellingham is the main man - Look at the way Real Madrid play him - as that false 9

I think he is just as good as a ten supporting Kane up high

But there needs to be the same outlet from the left as they get from the right - and that means Fodens role needs to either change or be replaced

Get someone like Gordon and Shaw on the left - then you start getting more chances for TAA to ping balls both ways and then allow them to create chances Kane


I don’t think the three work together to get the best out of all three

So it’s 2 from 3 - either Bellingham as a 10 with Kane

Or it’s Bellingham as a False 9 with Foden behind and some wider left

Apart from your bit about Bellingham playing as a 10, I don’t recognise an ounce of sense in your post.

Where was Kane for Bellingham’s goal? Oh look, it was Kane that dragged the centre back across leaving the hole behind. He was there if the ball went front post and he created a juicy gap behind him. Kane plays intelligent football, and tracks back. My question for when he tracks back is why aren’t other players recognising it and playing accordingly. Instead of swiping at one of the best forwards in the world, why not ask why others aren’t good enough to play with him.

Hell of a record in the Prem. Hell of a record in Germany. Hell of an international record. And you’re questioning his ability over 90mins to deliver? I agree with @Orikoru you’re talking rubbish.