Not many people are drooling over those names, but you did buy them. It's no one else's fault
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Where is Antony - he wasn’t injured for any significant periods
Casemiro was fit for a good part of the season
Martial was out of the team
Amrabat not in the team
Send Sancho on loan
Send Der Beek on loan
Williams on loan
Reguloin sent back
It’s players the club brought in
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www.transfermarkt.co.uk
Swango1980
Well-known member
I don't think they are happy he is staying at all. If he got the sack, they would rejoice that they were "right all along". Few fans who have a natural hatred towards Man Utd are going to turn around and say "Utd did well to keep him, he is a very good manager". It would make them sick to ever admit to any positive towards Man Utd.
If we were talking simply about players, and I turned around and said Man Utd's squad is good enough to be challenging the top positions, you and others would instantly mock my words. You'd tell me how bad the players are. Newcastle, Chelsea, Spurs, Villa and Liverpool fans will tell me how their players are better. We have heard frequently this season "what Man Utd player would make my team", and other fans have pretty much often said ZERO Man Utd players would make their first 11. At best, maybe one or 2 Man Utd players might get a loom in, after a long hard think.
Yet, talk about managers, and suddenly ETH is one of the worst managers in Utds history because he finished 8th. Winning trophies is meaningless. Injuries are meaningless. He is simply the worst. It sounds as if he is in charge of one of the greatest squads the PL has ever seen, and led them to 8th.
We talk about ownership, an no opposition fan is full of praise as to how Man Utd is run. Commonly referred to as a circus. Yet they still expect the Utd manager to get the team to one of the top positions in the country.
You mentioned Mourninho, Van Gaal and OGS. I must have missed it, but I'll go back to when Ole was in charge, and look for the odd time you praised his management. Just to see how honest you are being when you say you think man Utd were in a better position then. Because I can't actually think of one little positive we had back then that would imply Utd were stronger then than we are now. Even if we did finish higher up the table.
Man Utd finished 6th in the season before ETH took charge. But they were 11 points off 5th place (i.e. the team above us), 13 points off the top 4 and 35 points off 1st.
We were 8th this season, but 6 points off 5th, 8 points off the top 4 and 31 points off first. So, positionally, we are further from 1st. But, results wise, we are closer to first, top 4, etc. It is just that a few other clubs have improved as well. In all honesty, I don't view the 6th place we had a couple of years ago as any reason to celebrate being better than we are now. It was a poor season then, and it was poor now. But if you want to start using figures suggesting a decline, then as you can see, I can throw figure back indicating we are closer to the top teams than we were 2 years ago.
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Swango1980
Well-known member
I listed the players that have played most games in each position.
Anthony had legal issues start of season, and clearly has not hit any form since coming back. But, if you think Antony is one of our best players that should be able to elevate the club up the table, by all means include him in your side.
Sancho has been garbage for United since he joined, and we know he is creating headaches behind the scenes. ETH did exactly the right thing, and would have been considered a pushover had he just kept playing him (albeit, fans will happily completely reverse their view when talking about Rashford, as long as it can be used to bash ETH)
De Beek is truly awful, he is even worse than McTomminay and I don't think he is up to much.
The players the CLUB brought in, yes. And, a lot of those players were brough in before ETH anyway.
But, you didn't answer the question. Based on whatever you think Utds best team would have been this season, where should they have finished in the league?????
Swango1980
Well-known member
I didn't. ETH didn't. The club bought them.Not many people are drooling over those names, but you did buy them. It's no one else's fault
In the line up I mentioned, only THREE players feature than were bought by Utd since ETH was in charge. Hojlund, Evans and Onana. I finished the season actually liking Onana, and willing to see how he gets on with a solid defence. I like Hojlund. Evans was clearly not a signing to build the defence around, but more someone to help around the club and fill in if absolutely necessary. Goof job we did get him.
Casemiro came in last season, and was one of the best players in the league. Poor this season, but he has been in and out with injuries, struggled to get going and then played out of position at the end of the season. Malacia looked like solid cover for Shaw last year, but has been out all season. Martinez is one of my favourite signings in many years. Mount is a good player, and cover was needed in midfield, especially with Eriksen aging. But, has he just been unlucky with injuries, or did something not get picked up on his medical?
The only player, for me, that has come in under ETH that I'd struggle to defend is Antony. Although, I have seen how he played at Ajax, and at times he looked spectacular. However, spending that amount of money on him was crazy. I think he has struggled under the scrutiny, and it looks like he might simply be one of those players whose confidence drains when he has that limelight. Or, once he comes up against a certain quality of opponent, his abilities suddenly become nullified. But, as I said, I'd much prefer him on the wing than Dan James. But, luckily for james, Utd didn't buy him for £90 million, and he doesn't have a punchable face, so he could pretty much be awful every week without much scrutiny by the wider footballing public
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Think you have missed the point by a long way
But I’ll say it in simple terms
I am happy that Man Utd have kept ETH as manager instead of going for someone like Tuchel or even Pochettino - two managers who I think would do a better job than ETH
And that’s why if you read social media etc - opposition fans are happy Man Utd are sticking with ETH , I guess the only disappointment is they didn’t take a leap of faith on Southgate
Not for the first time I feel compelled to suggest that not everything which we read in the papers or see on TV can be taken as gospel. Far from it. Bear in mind the same reports which have been saying the manager is a dead man walking, and has been for weeks, are now suggesting he is in the process of negotiating a new contract.
I am quite sure Erik ten Hag is nobody’s fool. If he didn’t think he had the unequivocal backing of those who matter, then I suspect yesterday’s announcement, if not detailing his sacking, would have confirmed a mutual agreement for him to leave.
As for injuries, the players United have and so on, Swango has pretty much nailed it for me. He may have added, and apologies if I have missed it, that a good number of the players currently on the books may well not have been there but for the transfer policy chaos which has prevailed at the club for over a decade now, under successive managers. Not this manager’s fault at all.
That underlying chaos, as I have said multiple times now, simply has to impact on what goes on out on the pitch. No discernible style? I’m not surprised given the mismatch of players in the squad. The manager has had two transfer windows. Two. That is nowhere near long enough to unpick the catastrophic mess he has inherited, and when you throw into the mix the injuries detailed multiple times on this thread it comes as no real surprise that there is a total lack of consistency and clear tactical plan.
I’ll say again, if ten Hag has a structure in place which allows him to manage without all the additional pressures, and he has a largely fit squad of players he wants to work with to choose from, then it will be fair to sit in final judgement. I was absolutely convinced after the Coventry game that I wanted rid, but that was the culmination of several months of frustration. In the cold light of day I’m willing to give him a little more time.
Swango1980
Well-known member
I'm delighted they didn't go with Tuchel. I cannot stand the guy. Not saying he is an awful manager in every respect, but the thought of him bringing stability and being at Utd for a longer term feel incredibly unlikely. I think he'd cause more division than any of the other options, although De Zerbi could be similar.
I like Poch, but it would still take a long time convincing me he is better than ETH, given we've only seen ETH in PL a couple of seasons and he has won 2 trophies. Maybe if ETH had 6 or 7 seasons in PL, was finishing consistently around 8th and still only won 2 trophies, I'd have more to go on. But, as I'm not convinced Poch is actually any better, I'm more than happy keeping ETH. At least he has had 2 years at the club, knows the players, knows behind the scenes and knows the level of scrutiny he faces every week.
I think our only agreement is on Southgate. I'm not sure he is a better football manager than even Ole, and at least Ole had the backing of the fans as he played for Man Utd
Swango1980
Well-known member
In the day and age of so many mainstream and social media channels, 24 hour sports coverage like Sky Sports News, Talksport, etc. it is no surprise that journalists are becoming more and more desperate for newsbreaking features.
They talk about topics to death, and given the support United have (and the feelings of many opposition fans to Man Utd), then I guess we need to expect journalists to talk to death about Man Utd. To the point they basically just make stuff up. Utd finish 8th, continually talk negative about ETH all season. Create a narrative he will probably get sacked. And, as season draws to a close, they say it so much, they convince themselves so much that it will actually happen. They look for any small sign that the club is moving in that direction, then BANG, Man Utd to sack ETH after FA Cup final. Many journalists were adamant this was going to happen, so they took the gamble by stating it as fact, so they could take the credit after.
I guess a lot of them look like fools, who acted prematurely. But, they'll just spin it now. He WAS going to get sacked, by INEOS u-turned, bla bla bla.
Basically, I don't think any media can be trusted these days. Not until official statements have been made can we ever be sure about something.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
I have no doubt there will be a new contract on the table - that’s part of the sweetner
I also suspect that ETH wouldn’t be getting floods of offers for other jobs if he was to leave so he will stay put on a healthy contract
But if he was the new regimes manager then it should have been announced straight after the FA Cup
Any delay provides doubt and there is no doubt they were looking at other options and would have spoken to others - that’s a lack of faith in ETH and more of a sticking with whah they have as opposed to it being the best around - and to compensate being messed around here is a nice juicy contract
Does anyone think he is their first choice ?
It’s not been a good start for INEOS even more so when they still haven’t got their football brains in place yet - so again it’s someone non football making the choices ?
Think it’s going to be a long hard season
And ETH has had 4 transfer windows - and brought in 16 players at a cost of £411mil and he had significant control over those signings
Anyway I guess we will see what happens over the summer and the coming season
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Swango1980
Well-known member
Two transfer windows, unless you can realistically convince us that the January transfer window is strategically used to build squads, rather than simply be used as a sticking plaster. Not many clubs are willing to sell players mid season either. And, as for the first transfer window, ETH had just walked in the door. So, he didn't know much about the club at this stage, so you are acting more blind then. Especially if the club expect you to be the only person at the club in charge of transfers, which it seems people like yourself think he is, or should be? But, he didn't do too badly regardless. Casemiro and Martinez were very good signings, and some players we wanted out left.
Who knows what INEOS think. I suspect they prefer ETH over the likes of Tuchel, Poch and De Zerbi, otherwise they could have just brought them in? I'm not sure why such a long delay. Maybe INEOS decided they had scheduled an end of season review, and they would allow that to take the time it needs, regardless of outside pressures? Maybe they are struggling because not all their key players are in place, and that is causing a delay that won't be there in future seasons? It hasn't been great, but I'm just glad it is sorted now. Would be interesting to know what they are talking about behind the scenes about this summers transfer market. I'm sure we will hear little, and that doesn't bother me that much at this stage. I just hope, as I sure they are, working hard to improve the squad.
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
You clearly have a downer on ETH. He had a good record before United and I am sure if/when he goes there will be plenty of offers for him. He is clearly his own man and has kept his own counsel with dignity. I love the way you seem to have this magical insight into what is happening behind the scenes
He was being very heavily linked with Bayern. I feel pretty sure that, had he been sacked, he would not have been out of work for long.
So you keep saying. But has it not occurred to the naysayers that ten Hag may actually have gone off on his holidays having already been told his job was safe? When he was still there when May gave way to June, I was pretty certain this was going to be the outcome. Any new manager would have needed as much time as possible to get to work - the 2/3 weeks which have passed since the media truly went to work on this would have been critical time a new manager would have needed which, I am quite sure, INEOS would have wanted to afford the new incumbent.
January windows are for urgent business, not generally for long term planning. Which is why I say two. United have never been renowned for doing much work in the January window, with a few notable exceptions.
And again I find myself pointing to the regime ten Hag has been working under. Or rather, the lack of. For starters there is no way Antony joins for £85m had the proposed regime been in place two years ago. Not a chance.
We’re all really going round in circles here. We were going round in circles when most thought he was on his way out. And we’re doing it again now.
Ten Hag is staying. At least for now. So I for one will start to look forwards, rather than dwelling on what has gone before.
And it has always been this way.
On a different level, granted, but I have first hand experience of the press printing outright provable lies about a job I was involved with many years ago. They published only one side, made absolutely no attempt to get the full story, and weren’t remotely interested when the truth was pointed out to them.
Why? Because the truth was nowhere near as juicy as the lie, and would not have sold the number of papers their outrageous front page article no doubt did.
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
It isn't just the press though is it. Talksport SSN BBC sport including their websites all have a non-stop need for news. Sometimes a rumour or even downright lie gets the views, hits and listens and gets the caller on the lines
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Thomas Tuchel out of Manchester United running after talks with Ratcliffe
Sir Jim Ratcliffe held exploratory discussions with Thomas Tuchel last week regarding potentially replacing Erik ten Hag as Manchester United’s manager
“Sir Jim Ratcliffe held exploratory discussions with Thomas Tuchel last week regarding potentially replacing Erik ten Hag as Manchester United’s manager but has ruled himself out of the job.
Ratcliffe, who controls United’s football policy, met Tuchel in Monaco, where the former Bayern Munich and Chelsea coach outlined his vision for United. But after the talks Tuchel is thought to have viewed Ratcliffe as not minded to offer him the role and elected to walk away from consideration.“
It’s been very widely reported that Ratcliffe met with Tuchel and not just from Red Top hacks and click bait articles
Thomas Tuchel rules himself out of Man Utd job despite meeting with Sir Jim Ratcliffe
Premier League club are yet to decide on whether to sack Ten Hag
www.telegraph.co.uk
It is a shame these things get played out in the media this way but it’s the way of football now
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
Does anyone think he is their first choice ?
Tuchel elected to walk away. Nothing to do with ETH being first choice or not.Thomas Tuchel out of Manchester United running after talks with Ratcliffe
Sir Jim Ratcliffe held exploratory discussions with Thomas Tuchel last week regarding potentially replacing Erik ten Hag as Manchester United’s manageramp.theguardian.com
“Sir Jim Ratcliffe held exploratory discussions with Thomas Tuchel last week regarding potentially replacing Erik ten Hag as Manchester United’s manager but has ruled himself out of the job.
Ratcliffe, who controls United’s football policy, met Tuchel in Monaco, where the former Bayern Munich and Chelsea coach outlined his vision for United. But after the talks Tuchel is thought to have viewed Ratcliffe as not minded to offer him the role and elected to walk away from consideration.“
It’s been very widely reported that Ratcliffe met with Tuchel and not just from Red Top hacks and click bait articles
Thomas Tuchel rules himself out of Man Utd job despite meeting with Sir Jim Ratcliffe
Premier League club are yet to decide on whether to sack Ten Hag
It is a shame these things get played out in the media this way but it’s the way of football now
I think you might be viewing Ineos’s actions a little narrowly. First of all, I’d expect Jim Ratcliffe & his team to do a root and branch review of the football side of the business. In fact, I’d be very disappointed in him if he didn’t. I’ve been part of a team that’s reviewed the nuts and bolts of a business prior to take over. It takes months, and there were 8 of us doing it. It’s forensic in detail.
The final part of the jigsaw will have been how Utd finished the season and why they finished in that position. That review, and its presentation to Ratcliffe’s team, won’t have been finished till long after the final whistle at Wembley. From that meeting there’ll be a list of actions - they won’t have been determined in a coffee break.
Will Utd have looked at other managers? I’d be surprised if pretty much every club doesn’t. Some it will be a genuine search and others it will be a cursory glance.
Utd missed out on 4th by 3 wins, achieved on the back of horrendous injuries that saw players played out of position, players playing that were clearly struggling for fitness and kids playing. And they still managed an FA Cup win.
Ten Hag out was like most “manager out” scenarios, i.e. it was so obviously media driven.
You seem to have made a common mistake. You’ve shoe horned the evidence into a (subconscious?) predetermined conclusion(bias) rather than letting the evidence lead you to a conclusion.
AmandaJR
Money List Winner
All this talk about Utd from other fans - weird obsession...
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
A lot of it will come out in the wash
Even during any reviews for them to be speaking to others about the job position for me shows there is some doubts on the current person in charge. If the review was about off the field and they weren’t going to speak to other managers then I don’t think there would be an issue
Whilst the press no doubt push agendas to get clicks etc there will be a lot of truth behind a good number of the articles especially when it’s coming from more respected journalists ( there are some )
I also think the issues with Ashworth are not helping them
Ratcliffs/Inoes took over in Feb - you would expect a lot of ground work to be done before the end of the season and especially when it comes to sorting out off the field
They got Wilcox in early but they still need to sort their DoF out. The next season is huge for Man Utd - they need CL football - the tournament is only going to get bigger and the competition for those places will get tougher next season - we will be in the same boat , new manager , new organisation above the manager - we need to get things right as well. Missing out on CL has the potential to hit clubs hard
Heck of a season coming up that has the potential to be the most competitive in years maybe decades
