The Footie Thread

[GB72]

I think the argument currently (rightly or wrongly) is that some established clubs can compete with the state backed ones to some degree, that will go completely if you make it a free for all and youll soon end up with one or two teams winning every year (some would say thats already happening.......)

Fair point but i feel that the current rules are doing exactly that, just protecting only a few established clubs. Whilst competing with the state backed clubs would be difficult, it would not be beyond the realms of possibility for smaller clubs to secure backers who would spend enough to challenge the established top 6 clubs.

All we have now is the never ending circle. How do you get to spend more money, you get increased global support and revenue. How do you get that, by getting in to the biggest competitions and winning things, and how do you do that, by spending more money. Doh

The only way for total equality and a fair league would be to have a fixed annual spending cap for transfer fees and a fixed club wage cap, then everyone would be on an even footing and it would then be skill at all levels of the club that gained success. If you cannot have that then you have what you have now, money wins most of the time.

 

[ColchesterFC]

How about a rule where owners can spend as much of their own money as they like on buying players, as long as none of it is reflected as debt against the club. BUT, the total wage bill for all staff can only be a maximum of 80% of the revenue of the club. So an owner could spend two billion pounds buying prime Messi and Ronaldo and pay them a million quid each week but they then have to balance their squad with whatever available wages they have left over.

 

[GB72]

How about a rule where owners can spend as much of their own money as they like on buying players, as long as none of it is reflected as debt against the club. BUT, the total wage bill for all staff can only be a maximum of 80% of the revenue of the club. So an owner could spend two billion pounds buying prime Messi and Ronaldo and pay them a million quid each week but they then have to balance their squad with whatever available wages they have left over.

I think that you get a similar situation where the position regarding revenue favours a small number of long established clubs with a global following and that is there the vicious circle is. You cannot spend more on wages until you increase revenue, you increase revenue by winning things and qualifying for the big competitions which also increases global support and you increase ad and sponsorship revenue but having the biggest name players and how do you win things, qualify for the big competitions and sign the biggest name players, by spending more money.

 

[GB72]

I wonder how many clubs in this country actually care whether FFP exists or not. Clubs at the bottom half of the table only ever see it biting them for trying to keep up, clubs in the middle really have very little concern about what those at the very top spend. Those just below the traditional top 6 can see that the clubs above them can spend more anyway so it does not really help them. I can only see it helping, as mentioned above, a few of the long established, traditionally top sides stay ahead of the chasing pack and hang on to the coat tails of the clubs with oil money. I am guessing it is also popular in Europe to ensure that the traditionally big clubs from the French, German, Spanish and Italian leagues can keep pace with the premier league money.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

But is it not pretty much already about who has the most money irrespective of where it comes from

But the clubs that don’t have the oil backing are going out and earning the money , developing their own players , bringing in the sponsers , building stadiums in increase revenue , putting the right people in place for transfers , if they can’t afford any certain player then go the ones a level below and develop them.


I’ll take that method all day long over a rich sheik or Russian or corporate partnership just going into their reserves to buy whoever they want.

Its supposed to be a sport where you earn to win not who has the owner with the biggest wallet or reserves

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I wonder how many clubs in this country actually care whether FFP exists or not. Clubs at the bottom half of the table only ever see it biting them for trying to keep up, clubs in the middle really have very little concern about what those at the very top spend. Those just below the traditional top 6 can see that the clubs above them can spend more anyway so it does not really help them. I can only see it helping, as mentioned above, a few of the long established, traditionally top sides stay ahead of the chasing pack and hang on to the coat tails of the clubs with oil money. I am guessing it is also popular in Europe to ensure that the traditionally big clubs from the French, German, Spanish and Italian leagues can keep pace with the premier league money.

I would argue that the PL is head and shoulders above the European leagues simply on it's tv revenue and distribution of it.
Lets not forget that Spain allows clubs to do their own TV deals, and whilst the EUFA financial rules brought in (predominenntly to stop the PL) it has also stopped the Spanish and Italiens pumping state and corporate funds into certain clubs to keep them going. If it were a business, Barca would have been would up years ago, but even now so far in debt everyone goes on about how big and powerful they are.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

But the clubs that don’t have the oil backing are going out and earning the money , developing their own players , bringing in the sponsers , building stadiums in increase revenue , putting the right people in place for transfers , if they can’t afford any certain player then go the ones a level below and develop them.


I’ll take that method all day long over a rich sheik or Russian or corporate partnership just going into their reserves to buy whoever they want.

Its supposed to be a sport where you earn to win not who has the owner with the biggest wallet or reserves

But for all the money put in, it still needs the 11 on the pitch to perform. United, last season and periodically this as an example have definitely underperformed. Splashing the cash doesn't buy results as Newcastles PL position would back up

 

[Swango1980]

If we are talking about something keeping rich clubs richer and poor clubs poorer, then the creation of the Premier League probably has more to do with that than FFP.

After all, wasn't it the richer clubs that wanted the PL to get a better deal in money they could make? Whereas do the richer clubs actually like FFP?

 

[Skytot]

But the clubs that don’t have the oil backing are going out and earning the money , developing their own players , bringing in the sponsers , building stadiums in increase revenue , putting the right people in place for transfers , if they can’t afford any certain player then go the ones a level below and develop them.

Takeaway the 2 words Oil Backing and you are talking about Manchester City there.

 

[Swango1980]

But for all the money put in, it still needs the 11 on the pitch to perform. United, last season and periodically this as an example have definitely underperformed. Splashing the cash doesn't buy results as Newcastles PL position would back up

Have Newcastle splashed the cash? I know they've spent some, but I thought they've improved massively compared to where they were. Injuries is what has stunted their performances

 

[Bdill93]

My take on this is that the profit and sustainability rules are a bit out of date. 105m is chumps change over a 3 year period to a premier league side and needs to be increased.

The system at present does not allow fast improving teams to break the status quo which is the issue, Newcastle should have been able to spend more last summer to have a go in the CL this year.

Few tweaks and it'll work well.

Ill also just randomly point out, the list of top revenue football clubs for 2023 is out, and there's a seriously large amount of non-prem teams in the top 10. Real Madrid make absolute bank... but they still want a European Super League and fear the prem money? Think that's all codswallop to be honest.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Have Newcastle splashed the cash? I know they've spent some, but I thought they've improved massively compared to where they were. Injuries is what has stunted their performances

Possibly but clearly from their FFP position they have either overpaid for the players they have or not planned for such an injury hit season and any contingency planning

 

[GB72]

But the clubs that don’t have the oil backing are going out and earning the money , developing their own players , bringing in the sponsers , building stadiums in increase revenue , putting the right people in place for transfers , if they can’t afford any certain player then go the ones a level below and develop them.


I’ll take that method all day long over a rich sheik or Russian or corporate partnership just going into their reserves to buy whoever they want.

Its supposed to be a sport where you earn to win not who has the owner with the biggest wallet or reserves

Indeed and in an ideal world I would see all spending limited to an equal level so as everyone has to develop players etc and it becomes a real test of the clubs from top to bottom. I suppose it would be more acceptable if the basis of FFP was not the suggestion that it is there to protect the financial status of clubs and was detailed as there to keep competitive financial parity which I am not sure (and I could be very wrong) was ever detailed as an aim or goal. If that were the true and stated aims of FFP then I suspect the lower clubs would have wanted a far greater degree of control to keep a better level of parity throughout the league.

 

[Neilds]

Clubs should be rewarded for developing local talent - you should get an extra allowance under FFP for having players in the matchday squad who have come up through the academy (and not those who were bought form abroad at 16/17)

 

[GB72]

Clubs should be rewarded for developing local talent - you should get an extra allowance under FFP for having players in the matchday squad who have come up through the academy (and not those who were bought form abroad at 16/17)

That would be good. You could also help the national team, as they do in rugby, by giving extra allowance for playing England qualified players in the match day squad.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Possibly but clearly from their FFP position they have either overpaid for the players they have or not planned for such an injury hit season and any contingency planning

How can any team plan for an injury hit season? You accept some injuries but not so many as they have had. Now, they would happily go out and bolster the squad but the system wont let them. They are building it up but their plan didn't expect them to come 4th last year and have them in the CL.

In terms of overpaying, for who? They bought 2 players in Tonali, suspended, and Barnes, injured nearly straight away, who we can not make judgements on. The rest of Howe's signings would all make a profit if they were sold in the summer. That isn't overpaying. Anthony is overpaying, not Gordon, Botman, Isaak, Trippier, Pope........

I'm not crying tears for them but I am not seeing how your statement adds up.

 

[fundy]

The scary bit financially is how much money the clubs are losing in the tier below trying just to get into the premier league and the riches it brings, without even being in a position they will be competitive. I posted a link on the EFL thread recently that championship clubs between them have lost £3bn over 10 years, so approx £15m a year per club on average! How long is that sustainable before a lot more clubs go bust trying to chase the holy grail of promotion

 

[GB72]

The scary bit financially is how much money the clubs are losing in the tier below trying just to get into the premier league and the riches it brings, without even being in a position they will be competitive. I posted a link on the EFL thread recently that championship clubs between them have lost £3bn over 10 years, so approx £15m a year per club on average! How long is that sustainable before a lot more clubs go bust trying to chase the holy grail of promotion

That is the issue when the is so much disparity in the money splashing around in the Premier League as opposed to the rest of the pyramid. For the betterment of the game, you spread that TV money down more evenly and you kill several birds with one stone in that you better fund the lower leagues, you make the gap between leagues smaller and so you get a better transition both up and down and also make the desire to spend big to get to the financial promised land smaller and you also decrease the rampant premier league spending by reducing revenue and thus permitted spending under FFP.

Interestingly, I was not aware of the inequality of the split of the TV money in the Premier League as well with a disparity of £50m between top earners and the bottom earners. Again, massive impact on club revenues and on FFP spending ability. Again, another reason why the top will always accelerate away from the bottom.

There are not many issues in football across the board that I can see cannot be solved by spreading the wealth more evenly.

 

[Swango1980]

Clubs should be rewarded for developing local talent - you should get an extra allowance under FFP for having players in the matchday squad who have come up through the academy (and not those who were bought form abroad at 16/17)

I thought clubs were rewarded for developing local talent with FFP. Because by doing so, it either means they can sell them for huge profit, or keep them and avoid having to spend huge amounts of money buying in a ready made player for that position.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Whilst I think football moeny has gone bonkers and many complain about the value of players, how many fans acutall want their club to not buy the big players and "grow their own" all the time to stay within budgets and be a viable and stable finacially club?
If we are honest, I bet most here would not argue with their cllub spending big on a player or 2 every season. All fans want is their club success.