The First Year of WHS - Positives and Negatives

[JonnyGutteridge]

The PCC is probably the biggest issue. It should be both a publicly available calculation and should be to 1decimal place, to be mathematically accurate in the same way that our handicaps are 1 decimal place.

Why can the weather and PCC only add 1 whole shot? If PCC calcs come in at 0.49 and rounds to 0, that is daylight robbery from a lot of the field. Likewise, if it comes in at 0.51, rounds up to 1 and half the field get a new “top 8” score as a result, that’s equally as bad. Why not just have it rounded to 1dp, meaning more minor changes in weather, course conditions and setup etc still have an impact.

Another negative; I think there should be a limit on the number of general play cards someone can enter in any given time period that ‘count’. Maybe a max of 4 of your best 8 can be general play - I don’t know. I am Bitter over losing a matchplay this year, to a chap who put in 15 cards during 1 month to move from 7 handicap to 9 or 10 and shot about +3 against me.

Firstly, no one playing that regularly is getting worse, and secondly you only had to go back 2-3 comps on his record (6 weeks) to find scores in the low 70s, yet they were all purged from his recent 20 because he kept shooting 90 with his mates on weekday evenings (everyone knows after a hard days work, rushing round to beat the light that those rounds should be entirely what your handicap is based on??)

Personal review; started at 4.4, dropped to 3.5 at the lowest and back to 3.8 now.
Won 1 board comp, 1 monthly stableford and the invitational pairs event so probably my most successful year of golf.

 

[Backsticks]

The PCC is probably the biggest issue.

Is it than really an issue though, or just an irritation to a tiny minority at the fact that the calculation is published?
Which might be poor communication, but no evidence that it is a weakness of tge whs functioning itself.

Was CSS really effective though in its application. 'Tough' conditions which might have raised it in the past, were surely inequitable. The effect on the score of a scratchman, who plays with more control, can adjust his ball flight, and whose better shot level anyway is less vulnerable to its influence, and so it might cost him a shot or two. The high hc guys hooks, slices, and skys, balloon his score by 10 shots as he cannot adapt his play to the same degree. So it had quite a distorting effect, which was not sloped.
Just because we saw it applied more in the past, doesnt mean its a failing of whs that we now dont. It could be quite a good improvement in fact.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

For handicapping purposes there is a net double bogey limit according to course handicap.
Stableford is an individual strokeplay format and playing handicap for individual strokeplay applies.

Of course, but you said for individual strokeplay, strokeplay is medal play

There are many types of playing handicap.
Playing handicap for betterball matchplay, playing handicap for betterball strokeplay, etc
That is why I specified which one I was discussing.

If you'd stopped at Stableford, then yes, but you then made it look like you were discussing strokeplay, while yes s/ford is a form of strokeplay, I don't think it's a stretch for anyone to mistake what you meant here.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Doesn’t make the slightest difference to me. I just go out and shoot what I shoot. I had no idea how the old system worked, and I have no intention of giving a thought as to how the WHS works.

It does appear that too many people are annoyed it’s now too difficult to do the maths to manipulate their scores to massage their handicap.

Good to see your ignorance led to such an ill-informed conclusion.

So, to clarify, if you did spend any time looking at the system, you'd find that whereas under the old CONGU system, change was very slow, now you can get yourself a number of extra shots to win that big upcoming prize in only a few rounds. The ease of GP scoring, and the large jumps make the opportunity for bandits very easy to achieve. But thanks again for the ill-informed comment

 

[DanFST]

Had a guy that manipulated his HC before to win things, still does the same thing now.

 

[rulefan]

The ease of GP scoring, and the large jumps make the opportunity for bandits very easy to achieve. But thanks again for the ill-informed comment

The claimed ease of GP scoring has nothing to do with WHS. It is due to the introduction of apps which were already on their way. Supplementary Scores have been were available for years and it only needed an app to move the entry procedure from a PSI to a phone and bingo.

 

[Swango1980]

Good to see your ignorance led to such an ill-informed conclusion.

So, to clarify, if you did spend any time looking at the system, you'd find that whereas under the old CONGU system, change was very slow, now you can get yourself a number of extra shots to win that big upcoming prize in only a few rounds. The ease of GP scoring, and the large jumps make the opportunity for bandits very easy to achieve. But thanks again for the ill-informed comment

I've not played an awful lot the last few months, as I can't play midweek due to darkness. However, got some weekend rounds in. In that time my course handicap has increased by 3 shots. In next 2 rounds, assuming my form continues, my index will go up another 0.8, which hits the soft cap. Effectively giving me 4 extra shots on course handicap compared to 2 months ago.

In 5 rounds time, I lose my best score of all. So, assuming my form continues, my index will actually be 5.0 higher than 2 months ago, course handicap 6 better. And yes, that takes the soft cap into account and only taking half the increase after the 3.0 increase.

So, some might say that this is good, as it reflects form. However, I know form is (usually) temporary. So, when I start playing reasonable again, I know I will start smashing my handicap. If I repeat my round on September the 3rd, 95% handicap, I'd get 46 points. And I'm not a 30 handicapper, my index was 6.6 a couple of months ago.

In my situation, it is form. But it is easy for someone to manipulate their handicap upwards if they want.

It also puts myself and doubles partner in a situation were it will definitely pay to delay playing any more winter league games, until we get 2 or 3 cards in. He is also losing 2 fantastic rounds when he submits 2 scores, his index is currently 5.3. So, assuming we don't go out and play fantastic rounds in the winter conditions, we could both give ourselves a few more shots if we wait.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

The claimed ease of GP scoring has nothing to do with WHS. It is due to the introduction of apps which were already on their way. Supplementary Scores have been were available for years and it only needed an app to move the entry procedure from a PSI to a phone and bingo.

No it isn't, you had to inform your H'cap sec under CONGU, it was there in writing, now you just need to register, it's literally a change to the handicapping rules. Also supplementary scores were restricted for category one. There were other restrictions but I can't recall what they were now.

 

[Backache]

Is it than really an issue though, or just an irritation to a tiny minority at the fact that the calculation is published?
Which might be poor communication, but no evidence that it is a weakness of tge whs functioning itself.

Was CSS really effective though in its application. 'Tough' conditions which might have raised it in the past, were surely inequitable. The effect on the score of a scratchman, who plays with more control, can adjust his ball flight, and whose better shot level anyway is less vulnerable to its influence, and so it might cost him a shot or two. The high hc guys hooks, slices, and skys, balloon his score by 10 shots as he cannot adapt his play to the same degree. So it had quite a distorting effect, which was not sloped.
Just because we saw it applied more in the past, doesnt mean its a failing of whs that we now dont. It could be quite a good improvement in fact.

I guess there will never be complete equity. However under the old rules from recall if the conditions were particularly bad there could be downward adjustments only as well as changing the CSS.
We have all seen conditions in tournament golf where the average score of the field changes by a couple of shots due to adverse weather. Even the best amateur golfers will have more difficulty in adverse weather than the pros. Bad rounds can be discarded effectively by everyone under the best 8 out of 20 however it does seem a pity that the person playing very well but 'only' shooting around his current handicap does not have a greater reward as it may represent very good golf under the conditions which your best 8 is meant to discover.

 

[sweaty sock]

While I agree supplementary scores have always been a thing. And not particularly complicated to arrange. (We could log into hdid in the pro shop just as fast as we can now). The very term 'supplementary' implies why the were there. To supplement your competitive rounds if you couldnt get enough comps in.

WHS has not only raised awareness, but has changed the purpose of the rounds, and in some cases enforced them.

I can think of no club in the UK that made there member organised sweeps hand in supplementary cards. Many are now forced (maybe unfairly.... i dont know the particular details) to register on WHS. So its definitely not possible to say nothing has changed.

Whether its positive change for more accurate handicaps, or negative change for more manipulation is a case by case situation.

A member at our club has played over 100 days of golf consecutively. If youre trying to tell me congu would have accepted 100 supplementary scores without a major incident, then I beg to differ....

 

[Swango1980]

No it isn't, you had to inform your H'cap sec under CONGU, it was there in writing, now you just need to register, it's literally a change to the handicapping rules. Also supplementary scores were restricted for category one. There were other restrictions but I can't recall what they were now.

Actually, before WHS I believe you could still pre-register using the PSI screen, you didn't need to directly inform your handicap sec. Many clubs would also have books to register in writing, but that would simply be because registering on the PSI was still only relatively new. Ultimately, it was down to the club how they chose to administer it. And there were plenty of clubs who blatantly ignore the CONGU guidelines anyway, in terms of pre-registration (even our old handicap secretary did), but that is another issue entirely.

For me, the two big issues between pre and post WHS in terms of this particular issue are:

1. Pre-WHS, the club had to verify any general play score came in. It was an active procedure. So, if it wasn't pre-registered properly or there was some other suspicious pattern, it would be there for the handicap secretary to deal with before allowing it to touch a players record. Also, either the handicap sec typed in the score or checked the score entered by the player against the scorecard, and it was a safety net against errors in score input. Post WHS, the player enters this directly and it goes straight to their record before any Committee checks. The score could have been typed in wrong, they may have not had anyone mark their score, etc and there is little to stop this. The caveat is that it seems the software is being improved to try and deal with as many of these issues as best it can, so hopefully in a few years things will settle down.
2. As per my example, handicaps can fluctuate significantly from round to round, including in the upwards direction. So, if a player does have a big event coming up, and they notice that in their next 4 or 4 rounds they'll lose a bunch of their best scores, then a reasonable amount of those players may be tempted to purposely put in some bad scores over the next week or so to get a good handicap increase (double the increase if the big event is a two round event). Sure, pre EHS some players might have done that if they were edging towards x.5, thus getting an extra shot back. But realistically, a 1 shot increase per round would be the biggest increase they get. But, that is where we are. The advantage is that WHS will give players back more shots more quickly when they have declining ability, but you then need to accept that the same will be true for players who temporarily hit bad form.

 

[IanM]

Had a guy that manipulated his HC before to win things, still does the same thing now.

Only now it is easier!

 

[Swango1980]

While I agree supplementary scores have always been a thing. And not particularly complicated to arrange. (We could log into hdid in the pro shop just as fast as we can now). The very term 'supplementary' implies why the were there. To supplement your competitive rounds if you couldnt get enough comps in.

WHS has not only raised awareness, but has changed the purpose of the rounds, and in some cases enforced them.

I can think of no club in the UK that made there member organised sweeps hand in supplementary cards. Many are now forced (maybe unfairly.... i dont know the particular details) to register on WHS. So its definitely not possible to say nothing has changed.

Whether its positive change for more accurate handicaps, or negative change for more manipulation is a case by case situation.

A member at our club has played over 100 days of golf consecutively. If youre trying to tell me congu would have accepted 100 supplementary scores without a major incident, then I beg to differ....

Is he doing it for charity, or is he just crazy? The weather must have been horrific on at least one day. However, there would not have been an issue submitting 100 supplementary scores pre-WHS (excluding Cat 1 players). However, if they were all shockers, perhaps the handicap sec would act if he felt the player was trying to get 10 shots back. However, that is a hell of a lot of effort to achieve that, and pretty much any reasonable handicap secretary would have seen through it and simply adjusted the handicap downwards again

 

[rulefan]

No it isn't, you had to inform your H'cap sec under CONGU, it was there in writing, now you just need to register, it's literally a change to the handicapping rules. .

Not so.
21.6 A player intending to return a Supplementary Score is required to signify his intention prior to commencement of play in the manner determined by the Affiliated Club.

it's literally a change to the handicapping rules.

As is the whole of WHS. Which was the intention of course.

 

[rulefan]

If youre trying to tell me congu would have accepted 100 supplementary scores without a major incident, then I beg to differ....

21.4 (b) any number of Supplementary Scores may be returned annually by players in Categories 2 to 6;
21.11 Returns may be subject to action under Clause 23 B if malpractice is suspected.

 

[IanM]

Are the clause numbers in post s #97 and #98 CONGU or WHS?

Not so.
21.6 A player intending to return a Supplementary Score is required to signify his intention prior to commencement of play in the manner determined by the Affiliated Club..

There certainly are folk keying in scores without signifying intention. I've asked in several pro shops about this and got a shrug!



This thread has now descended into a repeat of the other thread... normal golfers pointing out the "sillies" and the "rulies" defending it!

 

[mikejohnchapman]

To answer the initial question - I think overall my reaction is positive (just). It took me a while to realise that it isn't right or wrong - it's just different!

Yes you can complain about the implementation (and I did) and EG dodged a bullet or two due to lockdown but overall it's encouraging people to add cards for handicap and generally their handicaps now reflect their playing ability more closely.

Took me a while to get my head around the fact that handicaps would vary throughout the year and not be like the more linear older system. However, taking into account the differing conditions throughout the year that's pretty logical.

By and large it works - you can argue about course ratings and slope ratings but they are what they are and have been used around the world for decades. I wish we had gone for gender neutral tees from the start but I'm sure we will sort this out in the next 12 months.

We have had some exceptional winning scores but generally we have had more people contending than previously, which is a good thing.

The course / playing handicap changes are a negative in my opinion and have skewed thing too far the other way from the previous system. Whether these will be looked at over time who knows.

Finally, the new system has set a direction of travel where handicaps will basically be approximate rather than exact. When matchplay, 4 ball and MLS rounds will be counted we will need binoculars to see the old system.

As I say, just (very) different.

 

[jim8flog]

.

Firstly, no one playing that regularly is getting worse, /QUOTE]

I would strongly argue that point. My trend has been upwards for several years now despite playing 2-3 times every week.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Not so.
21.6 A player intending to return a Supplementary Score is required to signify his intention prior to commencement of play in the manner determined by the Affiliated Club.



As is the whole of WHS. Which was the intention of course.

Apology accepted

 

[jim8flog]

A member at our club has played over 100 days of golf consecutively. If youre trying to tell me congu would have accepted 100 supplementary scores without a major incident, then I beg to differ....

Having had conversations at the club there are many that see submitting a card every time they play is the 'correct' thing to do. It just one of the areas where our WHS differs from another countries WHS.