The First Year of WHS - Positives and Negatives

[Swango1980]

The Australians seem to have got it better, and ditched playing handicap. They simply have Index and Course Handicap (albeit they call them something different)

I have come round to this view as well. Although early this year I thought differently.
My perception is that the Auzzies have ditched Course Handicap (except they didn't ditch it, they never had it in the first place). They go straight from GA Index (note no use of the word "handicap") straight to Daily Handicap which is equivalent to our Playing Handicap for individual strokeplay. Thus for the average Auzzie, their "handicap" is just what it used always used to be - that is "what I play off in medals and stablefords" with far less confusion than we appear to have the UK.
And they were ahead of us in implementing WHS. So we missed an opportunity to do what they had already done.

Yeah, sort of. Well, their Daily handicap is their Course Handicap (with a factor of 93% applied) and they have no final process for the Playing Handicap. So, in effect, you could say their Course and Playing Handicaps are one and the same thing, as you say.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

in regards PCC

Saturday Medal 15 people break HC - so PCC stays the same

Sunday Medal - 1 person does - PCC doesn’t change -

So the course conditions clearly far tougher on the Sunday yet the PCC doesn’t change to reflect it

So what the heck needs to happen for PCC to change

 

[jim8flog]

+ves for me
the the way it is quickly responsive to current ability.
I have had a variation of nearly two shots between low and high. Up and back down again.
It is a system which much better reflects potential - provided you are putting in plenty of scores with enough good ones the poor ones get ignored.

-ves
Increased levels of administration needed to ensure the system is operated correctly.
Too easy to register for a card and not submit it.
Eg App does not have a comparison between start time and when a round is submitted (IG app does)
Course Handicap and not Handicap index is the 'must have' on the card. The latter is a constant and the former a variable. When checking cards manually it is a far easier thing to check.


As a side note PCC works where I play seems to be about the same as CSS.

 

[Swango1980]

in regards PCC

Saturday Medal 15 people break HC - so PCC stays the same

Sunday Medal - 1 person does - PCC doesn’t change -

So the course conditions clearly far tougher on the Sunday yet the PCC doesn’t change to reflect it

So what the heck needs to happen for PCC to change

I think there was a Chapter in one of the Harry Potter novels that discussed PCC and the magic behind it.

 

[richbeech]

in regards PCC

Saturday Medal 15 people break HC - so PCC stays the same

Sunday Medal - 1 person does - PCC doesn’t change -

So the course conditions clearly far tougher on the Sunday yet the PCC doesn’t change to reflect it

So what the heck needs to happen for PCC to change

One of the biggest gripes I've got with WHS. Our place is quite prone to the elements and I remember on a few occasions where the conditions have been really tough, I think only 2-3 people played to handicap, nobody bettered their handicap out of a field of 70 golfers and PCC didn't budge.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Doesn’t make the slightest difference to me. I just go out and shoot what I shoot. I had no idea how the old system worked, and I have no intention of giving a thought as to how the WHS works.

It does appear that too many people are annoyed it’s now too difficult to do the maths to manipulate their scores to massage their handicap.

 

[BubbaP]

in regards PCC

Saturday Medal 15 people break HC - so PCC stays the same

Sunday Medal - 1 person does - PCC doesn’t change -

So the course conditions clearly far tougher on the Sunday yet the PCC doesn’t change to reflect it

So what the heck needs to happen for PCC to change

Don't have the answer but noticed the comp where I play on Sunday just gone had a PCC of 3. I have an EG "friend " at a course a few miles away, and noticed he played Sunday and PCC of 2.
So it does happen!

 

[BubbaP]

Why? The winter is 6 months, playing once a week the handicap record is entirely replaced (excepting your low point for soft/hard cap calculations) before the season begins?

In your neck of woods are there 24 months in the year, or just 2 seasons? ?‍
???

 

[Deleted member 15717]

in regards PCC

Saturday Medal 15 people break HC - so PCC stays the same

Sunday Medal - 1 person does - PCC doesn’t change -

So the course conditions clearly far tougher on the Sunday yet the PCC doesn’t change to reflect it

So what the heck needs to happen for PCC to change

We had a PCC of 2 last weekend. Medal, nett 74 won (par 72, CR 73.2)

Brutal conditions on a tough track. It will move in circumstances. I would guess it’s not to do with the amount of people breaking their handicap, but more about the number of players who play to an ‘expected’ level, which could be +/- 3 or 4 shots of ‘nett par’

It’s a dark art, and whilst it is frustrating not to know the calculation, don’t get too worked up by it

 

[Backache]

It does appear that too many people are annoyed it’s now too difficult to do the maths to manipulate their scores to massage their handicap.

Seems a bit cynical to me, most people seem to want to understand how it works and why PCC never appears to go up, which would reduce their handicap.

 

[IanMcC]

I am a big fan of WHS.

From a player point of view, the best thing about WHS is the way that it accurately reflects your ability, especially if you play a lot. I remember I hit a hot streak in 2015, and received an ESR down to 5.5. It took me 2 years to get back to where I usually live, around the 9 mark. Now, with 20 scores totally refreshing your handicap record, that is no longer a worry.
The worst thing is the PCC adjustment. Not one PCC rating has been anything other than zero for all the men’s comps at our club since WHS kicked in, and not publishing the algorithm is dreadful.

From an M&H point of view, the best thing, despite what a few say on here, is the fact that competitions are more open. Now that we have a proper, rated, 9 hole course, our winter 9 hole comps are competitive and unpredictable. When we used to run comps with contrived handicaps, it was impossible for a large group of players to win. That is not the case now.
The 2nd worst thing about WHS from a M&H perspective is exposing many players ignorance and stupidity. It doesn’t matter how many emails or one-to-one sessions some people have, they just ‘don’t get it’. It’s not their fault. It’s just how it is. What is difficult about taking one number to the course, reading off a board to obtain another, then either doing a simple calculation or reading off another board to obtain the final number? Much easier than figuring out 7/8ths or 7/16ths, I reckon.

The worst thing is the shambles at the start, when many, many scores were lost in the changeover to WHS. What a terrible way to kick off a system many years in the planning.

 

[rulefan]

Too easy to register for a card and not submit it.

That has been or is being addressed by EG.

With the introduction of WHS, came the greater opportunity for players to submit general play scores.

While it remains the responsibility of the player to ensure they pre-register and submit their scores, we have seen this isn’t always the case. It can leave an unsatisfied score intent in the player’s record for your club's handicap committee to deal with through the application of a penalty score.

We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.

What does this mean for the handicap committee at your club?

You will no longer have to track and chase players for non-submission of scores in general play. Where players fail to submit scores following automated reminder emails, a penalty score will be automatically applied.

Your handicap committee will have full sight of this and reports will be provided for you to see which players have received automatic penalty scores. This will provide you with the ability to adjust or remove the score if required.

The committee can also identify players who pre-registered a round by the MyEG app but subsequently delete it. As part of this process, they are asked to provide a reason for deleting the score and it would be up to the committee to review the Delete Score Intent Report, review the reasons and, should it be required (not a valid reason), apply a penalty score. We would recommend Course Rating + Course Handicap unless the committee wish to apply something different.

What does this mean for the player?

The player is now totally responsible for submitting their score once it has been pre-registered. If they fail to do so without providing the committee with a valid reason, an automated penalty score will be applied.

Should a score be deleted after it has been registered they will have to provide a reason for the deletion and it is then up to the committee if they accept the reason or apply a penalty score.

 

[Backsticks]

Seems a bit cynical to me, most people seem to want to understand how it works and why PCC never appears to go up, which would reduce their handicap.

Only thinking aloud here on PCC, but wondering, does it matter? In a way, under the old system CSS adjustments, without slope, were a blunt adjustment. Tough conditions are more of a problem for the high handicapper than the low one. Yet the adjustment was the same.
In the WHS implementation, when we are not adjusting for CR anyway, and all that matters is the relative performance versus the field, are PCC adjustments of less relevance - and all the better from being infrequently applied. The perception that they are much rarer than CSS adjuments may be coming from the fact that they are not needed, and only applied if the slope profile of the field, rather than the upper trance as was with CSS, is outside a tolerance. Understand that some are frustrated at both the algorithm not being public, and no explanation being given for its rare influence. But at heart, I have a feeling the PCC may be the superior solution. A true adjustment would require it 'sloped' to allow for different handicaps, and so probably better generally left out of the equation.

 

[SammmeBee]

I should also not the powers that be have changed the par of the course too to 4 under...

Played my first winter comp yesterday, winnjng score 44. Bearing in mind the winter tees are currently just the front of the yellow tees, the player has in effect shot 48 points but will be handicapped as if they shot 43. Thats before the freezing cold, driving rain effects the pcc to change the course rating by 0%....

Surely the par is level par on any course?!

 

[SammmeBee]

Been ok for me .
Cap has more or less stayed the same.

Negs have been the ridiculous scores that have been winning our comps.
I have often just not entered some and just had a knock on the Sunday instead.
Culminated last weekend my scratch cap mate shot a 62 gross and came forth in the comp.
It’s created so many bandits that the game has changed for the worse for me.

Just give up then fella…..

 

[SammmeBee]

in regards PCC

Saturday Medal 15 people break HC - so PCC stays the same

Sunday Medal - 1 person does - PCC doesn’t change -

So the course conditions clearly far tougher on the Sunday yet the PCC doesn’t change to reflect it

So what the heck needs to happen for PCC to change

Need to play a harder course….. not an easier one…..

 

[Wildboy370]

in regards PCC

Saturday Medal 15 people break HC - so PCC stays the same

Sunday Medal - 1 person does - PCC doesn’t change -

So the course conditions clearly far tougher on the Sunday yet the PCC doesn’t change to reflect it

So what the heck needs to happen for PCC to change

Evening. The PCC seems a dark art very much so. Below is an email from England golf I got after asking why in a field of 86 and not one made Par was there no PCC.

The PCC is a closed calculation within WHS - Its done via a calculator provided to us by the USGA/R&A.

We have no detail to share currently and have raised concerns with the USGA/R&A.​

so it would seem those that thrust the new system on us haven’t a scooby do how certain parts of it work. Officially so far since whs started we have had two PCC.

 

[clubchamp98]

Just give up then fella…..

That’s basically what has happened .
There is a split in the membership who don’t play in the comps now.
Off 6 I just can’t compete with 58 sad but true.

 

[Backsticks]

That’s basically what has happened .
There is a split in the membership who don’t play in the comps now.
Off 6 I just can’t compete with 58 sad but true.

Nor should you be able to compete with 58. No correct handicap is able to compete with one of the improving golfer. No low handicapper is ever able, nor supposed to compete with a score of that big a differential, which a high handicapper can shoot. Thats not a fault in the system. That is the system working correctly.
Unless your club really is an outlier (has it been queried? ) , and the slope is wrong by a big margin, then players not competing is due to a misunderstanding of the system, not a flaw in the system itself. I dont think that experience is widespread.

ps : are you seriously expecting to compete with a 58?

 

[clubchamp98]

Nor should you be able to compete with 58. No correct handicap is able to compete with one of the improving golfer. No low handicapper is ever able, nor supposed to compete with a score of that big a differential, which a high handicapper can shoot. Thats not a fault in the system. That is the system working correctly.
Unless your club really is an outlier (has it been queried? ) , and the slope is wrong by a big margin, then players not competing is due to a misunderstanding of the system, not a flaw in the system itself. I dont think that experience is widespread.

These are not improving golfers they have been playing for years
It was the “system “ that increased these handicaps of half decent golfers to almost double what they were playing off.
It’s started to settle down a bit now but there is a stupidly low score almost every week.
The big problem is they can’t keep it to themselves so you know what you can’t beat before you tee off.