the clock method

you asked draw the ball with an 80 yard pitch. that's quite different to hooking a ball around a tree.

I think you missed the context of the question/problem then! It was in the quote.

Jimbooo;929650[B said:
]If I'm 80yds away and behind a tree, I might want to fade or draw the ball.[/B] I also wouldn't whip my hands over on a draw.
If you are trying to draw the ball with an 80 yard finesse swing I wish you luck but I don't see it happening myself. I am no expert on drawing the ball but I thought you needed a lot of action on the ball to impart spin and make it turn in the air and can't see how to do that without hitting it hard.

Probably better to play a bump and run under the branches or take your medicine and come out sideways.
 
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yeah, I thought he was talking about working the ball in slightly either way. :o

I asked Jimbooo why he wanted to draw a wedge swing and he said if he was 80 yards from the green and behind a tree. Originally it was as much a question of expectations and planning shots/course management on my behalf.

I think, as Foxholer said, that accurate distance control and shaping the ball is counter intuitive which is why Pelz did not include it. He talks about 'dead hands' a steady repeatable tempo and removing the 'hit' from the wedge stroke which to me does not lend itself to drawing the ball. If you are within a 100 yards of the green then to me an accurate and repeatable distance control in the air and roll on the green is much more important than shape in the air.

If you are a feel player however and don't just rely on length of backswing to control your wedge distance then I can see this would be far easier to acheive and an extra weapon in the short game Arsenal. Pelz is all about the mechanical distances though so would not include it.

For the record he does talk about roll out on the green based on shot trajectory, firmness and elevation of the green, and amount of backspin imparted, which jimbooo asked about at the same time as the shot shaping.
 
For the record he does talk about roll out on the green based on shot trajectory, firmness and elevation of the green, and amount of backspin imparted, which jimbooo asked about at the same time as the shot shaping.

Ah right I don't remember reading that bit, but fair enough if it's in there. I think bending around a tree from 80yds is an extreme example, but I certainly would consider a fade or draw from that distance if the conditions promote it - for example a heavy cross-wind or a very sloped green.
 
I think that most of us should forget about drawing or fading out wedges and worry about the distance!

I suspect that many average golfers are sufficiently inaccurate with their wedges that the distance between several of the clock positions falls within their normal variation with any given one. So I would think that most average golfers need to sort out their consistency before really worrying about clever distance variation.

Another thought, mainly at those who are saying this sort of method is saving them multiple shots. How? Most course I play I don't really encounter too many pitch shots. Generally, I would be in the 100-170 yard distance for approach shots (there is only one real exception on my home course) and I would be pretty peed off if I was doing anything more than chipping as my next shot. Are you guys playing short courses? Are we talking about bombing drives so that 375 is genuinely a drive and a short pitch? I am far from a great pitcher but I would say that, even if I could get up and down every time from the 'part wedge' distance, I would probably drop handicap by no more than 3 shots, more realistically, doing it half the time, that is only a hot and a half.
 
Another thought, mainly at those who are saying this sort of method is saving them multiple shots. How? Most course I play I don't really encounter too many pitch shots. Generally, I would be in the 100-170 yard distance for approach shots (there is only one real exception on my home course) and I would be pretty peed off if I was doing anything more than chipping as my next shot. Are you guys playing short courses? Are we talking about bombing drives so that 375 is genuinely a drive and a short pitch? I am far from a great pitcher but I would say that, even if I could get up and down every time from the 'part wedge' distance, I would probably drop handicap by no more than 3 shots, more realistically, doing it half the time, that is only a hot and a half.

i would say 8 holes on my track after a decent tee or approach on par 5 would be wedge range for me. quite short course at 5900yrds i think, par 69.
 
8 at mine too, depending on how I feel and which way the wind is blowing, could be under 100yds for my approach.

Don't forget also, that when you hit a bad drive and chip out, it's not always sideways. There's usually a fairly safe way to leave yourself a pitch to the green (<100yds) if you don't get greedy.
 
Another thought, mainly at those who are saying this sort of method is saving them multiple shots. How? Most course I play I don't really encounter too many pitch shots. Generally, I would be in the 100-170 yard distance for approach shots (there is only one real exception on my home course) and I would be pretty peed off if I was doing anything more than chipping as my next shot. Are you guys playing short courses? Are we talking about bombing drives so that 375 is genuinely a drive and a short pitch? I am far from a great pitcher but I would say that, even if I could get up and down every time from the 'part wedge' distance, I would probably drop handicap by no more than 3 shots, more realistically, doing it half the time, that is only a hot and a half.

A good point and just had a look at my clubs score card.

and below are the distances (from the whites) left to the flag after a 250 yard drive on the par 4s and a 250 drive + 200 hybrid on the par 5s

1 = 57
2 = 169
3 = 135
4 = 141
6 = 88
8 = 197
9 = 47
10 = 58
11 = 65
12 = 98
14 = 79
16 = 28
17 = 97
18 = 116

9 of the 16 none par 3 holes will leave me with a distance wedge if I get my drive away. On top of that are all the times I hit a bad drive into the rough and have to wedge it foward maybe 50 yards and have a pitch and putt to save par. Also the 2nd is a monstrous par 5 with oob left and right and a sloping fairway right. I never take driver so would usually be laying up and sitting 3 from within 100 yards, similarly the 8th is a long par 4 which at 197 to an elevated green with severe rough right and long I usually lay up here too for a wedge in to save par.

so 11 holes I can expect to use my distance wedges in any given round and I also get the confidence to lay up short and trust my wedges to save par when the situation calls for it if I am in the rough or fairway bunker.
 
so 11 holes I can expect to use my distance wedges in any given round and I also get the confidence to lay up short and trust my wedges to save par when the situation calls for it if I am in the rough or fairway bunker.

So, to back up the theory, that's 11 chances to set yourself up with a single putt should you be able to wedge it to within 10ft... point made me thinks! its about setting up possible 1 putts whether they be for saving par, only making bogie rather than a double or dare i say it... setting up a birdie!!
 
Going on the theory that talksalot81 makes i can see where he is coming from. For a lot of players they unless they are playing very short courses then they are very rarely encountering shots from the 50 to 100 yard range. But on the other hand Region makes a good point regarding when you have to get out of trouble and lay up, that is the money maker in my eyes because that is where you see the low handicappers and pros scramble their pars from by getting up and down from that sort of range.

At my place without having to lay up after bad shots I will only have 4 pitches to make from within 100 yards. But maybe that is the way I play, as I do not hit the driver that many times round my track as I prefer to play safe with long irons and 3W from the tee. If I did use the driver every possible chance then I would probably have to play 7 shots from within 100 yards. I am happy though with the way I do just going on feel, 6 times today I had to play these shots and got 5 inside 10' 2 of them being inside 5' which gave me 2 birdies.
 
''In 2012 the proximity to the hole from inside 100 yards was between 12 and 17 feet from the hole for the PGA Tour golfers ranked from 1 to 100''


getting it inside 10feet is pretty good shooting!
 
Ah right I don't remember reading that bit, but fair enough if it's in there. I think bending around a tree from 80yds is an extreme example, but I certainly would consider a fade or draw from that distance if the conditions promote it - for example a heavy cross-wind or a very sloped green.

why dont you just adjust your normal shot shape for the wind/green slope ??? trying to draw/fade wedges from 100 yards in is complicated stuff, for the elite amongst us imo.

this method isnt for everyone, it just depoends how you mind works, pelz is a scientist and a number cruncher, therefor his brain sees data, im an engineer and my brain also sees things in a technical manner, numbers and data, whereas an artist or something is more likely to be free flowing type of person and therefor probably a better feel player. i use pelz method to an extent for this reason, my 3 swings are club horizontal to the ground (7.30) then left arm horizontal to the ground (9) then full swing (10.30). all easy to see with your peripheral vision.

the thing i like about pelz is his system is based on hard evidence, not just some guy saying this is how it should be played.
 
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