Slow play - Discussion

[Deleted Member 1156]

Pace of play is entirely subjective There is no definitive time that it should take to play a round of golf.

A lot of clubs have timings on the scorecard or signs around the course detailing how long you should take to play each hole or get to a certain point on the course. And the professional tours have very clear guidelines on how long a round should take, right down to the times allowed for each player in a group to play their shot.

I think in most cases it's pretty clear how long it should take to get round. Just a pity more clubs don't enforce their own rules.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

You're having a laugh right? Are you not the guy who wouldn't let the two ball through last week?!

go and re-read the whole thread, then come back to me.

 

[Brian_C]

Slow play is relative. I had a game last week, on my own, (OK I played a few extra balls on some shots) and there was a mixed fourball 3 slots behind me, and they must have flew around in record time. They had a buggy so that probably speeded them up a bit. But they caught me while I was on the 9th Tee, and they on the 8th green and said that when they caught me they’d have to play through as they were playing a comp. A fourball v’s oneball, slowplay mmm.
I also passed three teenagers on the 13th, who were 3 slots in front of me. We have a sign on the 12th advising of Slow play saying you need to be on the 12th in 2hrs 40mins. That fourball passed the 3 teenagers also and caught me again on the 18th. Oh and I’d finished in 3hrs 10mins. Is that a case of slowplay?

 

[StrangelyBrown]

And the professional tours have very clear guidelines on how long a round should take

Do they? They have guidelines on how long a shot should take (50 seconds if you're first to play, 45 seconds for subsequent players), but I don't think they've got a line on how long a round should take. If they do, they're not applying it.

Anyways, my point is that one persons slow play is acceptable pace to others. One persons normal pace would be far too fast for some. I don't want to be on the course for 6 hours, but I don't want to jog around in 2 hours 45 minutes either.

If my group keeps up with the game in front, and the game behind us isn't firing balls over our heads, then we're playing at an appropriate pace.

 

[kid2]

My question to you guys is this:

How do you define slow play? What makes somebody a slow player?

Please feel free to tell me I'm wrong, I love a good debate :thup:

People with no grey matter between their ears!!!!!!

 

[Gazboy]

Perhaps following etiquette rigidly does not help on a very busy course - the longest hitter insisting on honour on the tee when shorter playing partners could safely tee off & mark cards. You see some groups not help a player find a lost ball and just stand there chatting (including partially sighted players looking for balls) and insisting in playing in turn on/around the green in social rounds. We did follow a 4 ball a few weeks ago that were marking, cleaning and aligning balls on the green with every putt, and none of these guys could 1 or 2 putt either, this includes tap-ins.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Do they?

Yes they do, they have time limits per shot and if they fall behind the group in front they are put on the clock and further action taken if necessary.

Regarding your final point about playing at an appropriate pace, ...... you aren't. You're playing at the fastest possible pace that the group in front will allow you to play at but that isn't necessarily the appropriate pace if they or groups in front of them are slow.

 

[ColchesterFC]

If the course is heaving, then it's going to be slow no matter what people do. That, unfortunatley is when you have to accept it's going to be a slow day.

WHY???????? This is the comment that leaves me absolutely fuming. Why should it be slow just because it's busy. People use this as an excuse for being slow.

There is a gap of 8 to 10 minutes between groups depending on the course. If you tee off as a 4 ball on a Par 4 and after 10 minutes aren't at the very least approaching the green to play your 3rd shots then you are playing too slow. That then gives you the time it takes for the next 4 ball to tee off and walk to there balls for you to finish up and clear the green. If every group did this there wouldn't be a problem with slow play. An average of 15 minutes per hole for a 4 ball gives a 4 + 1/2 hour round which to me doesn't sound too fast or too slow. If you aren't able to do this then you should be kicked off the course, banned from all golf clubs in the UK and told to take up bowls instead. 6 hours for a round of golf is ridiculous.

 

[StrangelyBrown]

Yes they do, they have time limits per shot and if they fall behind the group in front they are put on the clock and further action taken if necessary.

I think I just said that? They have a time per shot that is deemed appropriate, not a time for a round.

Regarding your final point about playing at an appropriate pace, ...... you aren't. You're playing at the fastest possible pace that the group in front will allow you to play at but that isn't necessarily the appropriate pace if they or groups in front of them are slow.

Fair enough, we have different opinions.

 

[GB72]

I think that there are some fair points on here.

The first thing is that we should get rid of the term 'slow play'. The term has a stigma attached to it and nobody likes to be accused of being a slow player. The OP is, of course, correct in that we all play at different speeds and that should be accepted. It is how each group deals with the pace of play that they adopt in comparison to those around that is the problem. Perhaps if a term that appears less derratory were used, people may play others through more as there would not be attached to that a tacit admission that they are a slow golfer.

I also find the 2-ball/4-ball argument a bit frustrating. I only play at the weekend and the course is busy. Also, most people play in 3 or 4 balls. It is thus unfair for a 2 ball to come on to a busy course where the predminant number of groups are larger and expect to play through everyone. It may be selfish but at the weekend the course is busy, most groups are 3 or 4 balls so those in smaller groups must expect that they aint getting round in 3 hours. Thing is, the club and the people in question could do more to help the situation. If the club had a policy of trying to pair up smaller groups or do more to encourage roll ups so as more people go out in 3 or 4 balls then the pace would remain more even for all concerned. As we have 3 loops of 9, the alternative would be so allocate one to smaller groups.

My big complaint, however, is lost balls. It is clearly written in a number of places and on the score card that if it is not immediately apparrent that a ball will be found, the group behind should be called through whilst you search. A simple and sensible rule that is almost totally ignored and that grinds my gears. You can stand on the tee waiving at the group in front but you may as well be invisible.

My other big issue is actually time spent on the green. Often I play behind groups that have a decent pace tee to green but then spend ages lining up putts, looking at it from every angle etc and heaven help that any one of them should start looking at his putt before it is his turn. Are greens are very good but they do not have massive breaks or the pace of Augusta on a sunny day so why it takes so long I have no idea.

I am also going to be controversial here and put some of the blame on teaching pros as well. I know a few people who played at a decent pace then they had a lesson. They were all tought that they must have a detailed pre-shot routine an some of these take an age. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to develop a short but effective routine that can be tought rather than those that take an age.

There are things that can be done to speed up your own play (put bag in right place, be ready when it is your turn etc) but that is just being sensible. Perhaps it is time that we stopped chastising people for being 'slow golfers' and instead encouraged everyone to be 'courteous golfers' who take into account those around them and act accordingly and, in turn, change a negative into a chance for a positive.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

Amen GB72. Amen.

 

[mikee247]

Each course is different in both set up and distance! The time it takes for a round of golf is only relevant to each individual course. My own course expectations of players is less than 4.5 hours as a 3 ball in a comp off the whites. It's a long walk and difficult course.... If you get round under 4 hours you've done well and played very quickly. My medal round yesterday lasted 5 hours... mainly because a 3 ball in front lost a lot of balls and failed to take provs etc etc etc......

However keeping up with the people in front, taking provisional balls and all the other examples of bad etiquette and lack of understanding of the game and how it should be played, that have been mentioned here, all contribute to the slow play issue which is very real regardless how you dress it up..... And of course the more the Pro's do it on TV ( like that Spanish chap on the 17th in Switzerland yesterday) the worse its going to get.

 

[Khamelion]

If you tee off, walk to your ball and hit it onto the green I don't see why it's an issue taking your time over your putts. I went to the US Open qualifying and that's exactly what they do.... they whack it down the middle, walk VERY FAST to their ball so they can spend a moment assessing their 2nd shot, hit it on or near the green then get to the green VERY FAST so they can spend time assessing what they have. They were 8 minutes on/around the greens and they were playing as 2-balls. They still got round in less than 3 1/2hrs and that was their livelihood on the line.

I agree with what you write, but the difference is that the golfers you refer to are pros, with a consistent swing and the ability to make the green in two and yes I would take my time lining up puts if it was my livelihood on the line, but I wrote about a group of mid week medal amateurs, who think they are pros, could barely hit the green in three and if they managed to get the ball stiff if would be more by good luck and good skill.

So after the time it took them to get to the green and then the amount of time it took them to line up, miss, mark, clean the ball, place the ball, step away and line up again, it did start to get tedious.

 

[Curls]

go and re-read the whole thread, then come back to me.

I have reread the thread and another also. You were of the mindset that a two ball couldn't play through you because there was a competition on ahead and the course was stacked. That's the mindset of that slow group ahead of you. "Its busy, just deal with it". Not nice when you're at the faster end of that equation, which is exactly where you put that 2 ball last weekend, so when you jump on here (and your own thread started earlier) all indignant I found it amusing.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

I have reread the thread and another also. You were of the mindset that a two ball couldn't play through you because there was a competition on ahead and the course was stacked. That's the mindset of that slow group ahead of you. "Its busy, just deal with it". Not nice when you're at the faster end of that equation, which is exactly where you put that 2 ball last weekend, so when you jump on here (and your own thread started earlier) all indignant I found it amusing.

So you 100% believe that the 9 groups of 4 balls ahead playing in the competition would have let the 2 ball through?

I live in the real world and like to apply common sense.

Thanks

 

[guest100718]

I think that there are some fair points on here.

The first thing is that we should get rid of the term 'slow play'. The term has a stigma attached to it and nobody likes to be accused of being a slow player. The OP is, of course, correct in that we all play at different speeds and that should be accepted. It is how each group deals with the pace of play that they adopt in comparison to those around that is the problem. Perhaps if a term that appears less derratory were used, people may play others through more as there would not be attached to that a tacit admission that they are a slow golfer.

I also find the 2-ball/4-ball argument a bit frustrating. I only play at the weekend and the course is busy. Also, most people play in 3 or 4 balls. It is thus unfair for a 2 ball to come on to a busy course where the predminant number of groups are larger and expect to play through everyone. It may be selfish but at the weekend the course is busy, most groups are 3 or 4 balls so those in smaller groups must expect that they aint getting round in 3 hours. Thing is, the club and the people in question could do more to help the situation. If the club had a policy of trying to pair up smaller groups or do more to encourage roll ups so as more people go out in 3 or 4 balls then the pace would remain more even for all concerned. As we have 3 loops of 9, the alternative would be so allocate one to smaller groups.

My big complaint, however, is lost balls. It is clearly written in a number of places and on the score card that if it is not immediately apparrent that a ball will be found, the group behind should be called through whilst you search. A simple and sensible rule that is almost totally ignored and that grinds my gears. You can stand on the tee waiving at the group in front but you may as well be invisible.

My other big issue is actually time spent on the green. Often I play behind groups that have a decent pace tee to green but then spend ages lining up putts, looking at it from every angle etc and heaven help that any one of them should start looking at his putt before it is his turn. Are greens are very good but they do not have massive breaks or the pace of Augusta on a sunny day so why it takes so long I have no idea.

I am also going to be controversial here and put some of the blame on teaching pros as well. I know a few people who played at a decent pace then they had a lesson. They were all tought that they must have a detailed pre-shot routine an some of these take an age. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to develop a short but effective routine that can be tought rather than those that take an age.

There are things that can be done to speed up your own play (put bag in right place, be ready when it is your turn etc) but that is just being sensible. Perhaps it is time that we stopped chastising people for being 'slow golfers' and instead encouraged everyone to be 'courteous golfers' who take into account those around them and act accordingly and, in turn, change a negative into a chance for a positive.

The problem is that so many people dont do any of this.
you can also often see that there are huge gaps in the course and that 1 group will be holding up several others.

 

[Curls]

So you 100% believe that the 9 groups of 4 balls ahead playing in the competition would have let the 2 ball through?

I live in the real world and like to apply common sense.

Thanks

And in the real world the decision of those 9 groups to allow them play through or not was not your choice to make.

Perhaps they would have played through say 4 of them, that's 40 minutes earlier they'd have finished and no one, including yourself, would have been any slower then the 5 hour 15 you were. At that pace there were certainly balls being looked for in the clag. Perhaps they would have played through none, but they never got the opportunity because you made the decision for the whole field yourself.

This isn't about selfish two balls running around wanting to play through everyone, its about common sense, no way in any universe a fast 2 ball playing through a field of 4 holds up the entire field for more than 5 minutes tops and in most cases I'd say not at all. I don't see why this is so hard to work out.

Whats the solution - the course apply a "no two ball" policy - would that help? What if they applied a "3 ball only" rule. Then you couldn't play with your buddies every weekend. Sounds unfair doesn't it? If the former is the case then that's the course decision and everyone will abide by it, we're not talking about those cases.

If someone (or 2) asks to join our 2 ball I'm always delighted to let them, why? Well apart from being a sociable chap it improves the chances that we will play at a regular rhythm, something you lose as a 2 ball in a slow field, because people take it upon themselves to make the decision for everyone else that "its busy, no one is going through".

 

[Deleted member 18121]

We're quite clearly never going to agree on this, but in my opinion, if my group are being held up on every single shot around the course and are not allowed to play through then I see no point in letting anyone else through us as all we will have achieved is swapping places on the course.

As I mentioned in the thread before however, if people starting firing balls at us I will let them through in future - it can then be the members comp who have the balls fired at them. I wonder how long the 2 ball would last on the course if that were to happen.

 

[Allanxyz]

I think although people obviously play at different paces and you could argue all day long about whether you should really use the term "slow play", what's clear is that there is an issue that many people are giving up golf, not taking up the game and whatever, because it takes up too much time. So there is an issue that has to be dealt with, call it whatever you like.

To me there are the sensible things, that many have already mentioned, that should really be drummed into all golfers, be ready to play your shot, leave bags on the right side of the green, mark your cards away from the green. I don't think there can be much debate here, it doesn't cost anyone any hardship to do these things... it's just education.

Then there are those things which are a little more difficult... lining your putts up for an age, pre-shot routine... but as long as they are within the rules then why not... but there will always be differences of opinion here.. how quick should someones pre-shot routine be? I don't agree you can tell someone that they should make 1, 2 or 3 practice swings... as long as they don't take over the allowed amount of time... I think there are two solutions to these issues. 1. Etiquette...if you happen to be play at a pace that is slower than those in front and behind then let people play through.. if you are looking for lost balls, let people play through... 2. Change the rules to reduce the amount of "faff" time - this is tricky, of course...

As with GB72, my biggest issue is with lost balls but from a slightly different view. Although as mentioned above people should be called through I think the calling through still causes some delay.

I say change the 5 minute rule to a 1 minute rule... it would encourage more focus on accuracy and not distance, better concentration on where your ball has actually gone. I played in our club championship at the weekend and this was by far and away the biggest time spent... the card is marked with 15 mins per hole recommended time... you lose a couple of balls and that could be 10 minutes gone just like that. Who would miss trudging round in the rough for 5 minutes!

 

[Curls]

I see no point in letting anyone else through us as all we will have achieved is swapping places on the course.

This is the problem, what you don't understand is that you are not just swapping places!!!! You complained about not being left through the slower 4 ball ahead of you, they probably just said "its busy ahead, no point swapping places".

People should allow a faster group through to progress at a rate dependent on those in front, not make the decision themselves that it's too busy for anyone to go through. All it takes is one lost ball in the clag (proportionally twice as likely to happen to a 4 ball than a 2) and that 2 ball is through and gone. If that's happening in the group ahead of you and you won't let them through they never have the chance.

With this attitude everyone is doomed to 5 and a half hour rounds, which is what is happening.