Slow play again

[Mandofred]

And therein lies the whole problem.
What's reasonable to you isn't reasonable to others and who's to say who's right and who's wrong?

There will be a few who say 4.05 is too slow while a few will say it's too fast.
Why not use a system that keeps everyone happy?

The club decides what are acceptable times, and also should be responsible for enforcement. As golfers, we need to stay within those guidelines. Who decides how fast you can drive? etc etc .....Someone has to. If the speed limit is 60, it doesn't matter if I think it is too slow or not....60 is how fast I will drive. If you are a farm tractor (as an example), please pull over occasionally to let traffic through. Seems reasonable.

 

[clubchamp98]

So to reduce slow play you can either.....
1. Educate golfers to play quicker....tried for years and hasn't worked
2. Longer gaps, 10 mins between tee times....loss of available tee times. 60 to 80 golfers won't get a game.
3. Tell slow groups to let faster groups through...tried for years and hasn't worked.
4. Ready golf....hasn't worked, slow players will still be slow.
5. Course marshals... who's going to volunteer?
6. Try a new idea which allows EVERYONE to play at the pace they choose.....good idea, never been tried but wouldn't work at our place.

Any other new ideas that haven't been tried in the last hundred years?

One last question if I may please...
How many notoriously slow players do you have at your club?


Correct

Yes it can

No they don't.
Faster players out first will have no influence on slower players game. Slow players out first will hold up the whole field and dictate their pace to everyone else.
Of course slow players should call faster groups but they can't call everyone through.

To answer your question Three! They don’t play together.
But that’s all it takes to impact the whole field.

One of them walks very poorly ( don’t know why) but refuses to use a buggy!

 

[garyinderry]

I agree in principle with everything you say except for it being too late if he’s on the course.

Pace of play/acceptable time etc should be made clear prior to any tournament starting, if a group in front are particularly fast it can make the group behind appear slow.

A group playing in 3hr 30mins can appear slow to a group playing in 3hrs 10mins.

All this slow/fast etc needs to be quantified, otherwise it is simply perception.

Each course is different and those that have signs on the course after 6, 9, 12 holes giving an expected time to have completed said holes or timings printed on the scorecard can help.

Because of this thread I checked to see where the last of the pace of play signs are at our course.
It was situated on the gate on the walk between the 15th green and 16th tee.

Does any course have a sign saying how long the full round should be as you finish the 18th.

This would at least plant the notion of how long the round should take.

 

[PaulMdj]

Because of this thread I checked to see where the last of the pace of play signs are at our course.
It was situated on the gate on the walk between the 15th green and 16th tee.

Does any course have a sign saying how long the full round should be as you finish the 18th.

This would at least plant the notion of how long the round should take.

Not aware of any signs, think I’ve seen them for 18 holes on a scorecard.
Ours stop after 12.

 

[bobmac]

To use your system somebody has to say what is right and what is wrong.

Why?
I don't follow.
If faster players go out first and slow players out at the back of the field, never the twain shall meet and the rest of the majority of the field can play at a pace that is neither fast nor slow.
If the first 2-3 groups take 3-3.30, the majority of the field take 4 hours and the last group take 4.30-5 hrs, who is right and who is wrong?

A group playing in 3hr 30mins can appear slow to a group playing in 3hrs 10mins.

So what?
If they are keeping up with the time guidelines decided by the club then there's no problem. However if they are holding up a faster group then they should of course call the faster group through

 

[Deleted member 35504]

Pace of play/acceptable time etc should be made clear prior to any tournament starting,

I was taking it for granted that the players were behind time because all players are given pace of play times in county tournaments (or they should be).

So as you allude to, just because a group is a hole behind, it doesn't necessarily mean they are slow or behind schedule.

 

[Deleted member 35504]

If they are keeping up with the time guidelines decided by the club then there's no problem. However if they are holding up a faster group then they should of course call the faster group through

You can't be talking about a tournament surely?

 

[bobmac]

To answer your question Three! They don’t play together.
But that’s all it takes to impact the whole field.

Exactly, which is why they should be encouraged to play behind the majority of the field.
Why let 3 players ruin the day for 150 other golfers

You can't be talking about a tournament surely?

I was talking about club comps when there is a starting sheet and the tees are booked

 

[Backsticks]

NO NO NO NO NO

There is SO much wrong in there.

First of all, the comment about being discourteous to the slow bloke is ridiculous, if he can't get round in an acceptable pace he shouldn't be there. Everyone has a duty to get round in a decent speed.

Secondly, why do people get so childish when they're told they are out of position and need to speed up? Nobody "accused" you, it's the official's job to tell you the statement of fact that you are not playing swiftly enough as a group. If you continue to play slowly they will start to identify the reason.

Why should the majority accept that some people are slow and therefore degrade the way things are played for the selfish minority?

They arent a selfish minority. It is the selfish selfrighteousness of thise who dont tolerate slower players that is the real problem of 'slow play'.
Whip the slower members of the community on to speed up their pace, or eject them. Quite fascist.

 

[Backsticks]

I agree in principle with everything you say except for it being too late if he’s on the course.

Pace of play/acceptable time etc should be made clear prior to any tournament starting, if a group in front are particularly fast it can make the group behind appear slow.

A group playing in 3hr 30mins can appear slow to a group playing in 3hrs 10mins.

All this slow/fast etc needs to be quantified, otherwise it is simply perception.

Each course is different and those that have signs on the course after 6, 9, 12 holes giving an expected time to have completed said holes or timings printed on the scorecard can help.

Should acceptable pace of play be allocated according to handicap for each player ?

 

[Neilds]

I take it all those who are complaining about slow play/ players turn up at the course 2 minutes before their tee time, shoes on, sign in, etc and rush to the first tee with no warm up. They then play their round, shake hands, hand in their card and leave the club? If not and you turn up early and stay for a drink/chat/food afterwards why does it matter if you take a few extra minutes to get round?

PS - This is (partly) tongue in cheek so please do not get offended.

 

[Backsticks]

Exactly, which is why they should be encouraged to play behind the majority of the field.
Why let 3 players ruin the day for 150 other golfers

It isnt being ruined. Talk about over dramatic, or 1st world problems : I was out with my friends playing golf, and it took 4hrs 20 mins. I wanted it to take 3hrs 50 mins. Oh the horror !

 

[PaulMdj]

Why?
I don't follow.
If faster players go out first and slow players out at the back of the field, never the twain shall meet and the rest of the majority of the field can play at a pace that is neither fast nor slow.
If the first 2-3 groups take 3-3.30, the majority of the field take 4 hours and the last group take 4.30-5 hrs, who is right and who is wrong?

So what?
If they are keeping up with the time guidelines decided by the club then there's no problem. However if they are holding up a faster group then they should of course call the faster group through

You’re moving the goalposts. Other posts you say the first 4 groups, now 2-3, what if 2 guys say they can get round in 2:50? Do we accommodate them or put them with a person off 3:30 as the comp is 3 balls?

You’ve repeated “who is right and who is wrong” again! Who decides 3-3:30 is fast?

Finally, If they are holding up a faster group, your suggestion has failed!

 

[Deleted member 35504]

They arent a selfish minority. It is the selfish selfrighteousness of thise who dont tolerate slower players that is the real problem of 'slow play'.
Whip the slower members of the community on to speed up their pace, or eject them. Quite fascist.

Yes absolutely.
They're the scurge of golf enjoyment so do whatever it takes.

 

[Deleted member 35504]

I was talking about club comps when there is a starting sheet and the tees are booked

Well to suggest that any group keeping up with published timings should let another group through is plain daft.

If a group is on time, never in the history of the game are they expected to stand aside. The whole point of timings is to either adhere to them or get penalised.
Playing quicker than the advertised timings doesn't get anyone anywhere, if they think it's too slow they should bring it up with whoever sets the timings.

 

[bobmac]

It isnt being ruined. Talk about over dramatic, or 1st world problems : I was out with my friends playing golf, and it took 4hrs 20 mins. I wanted it to take 3hrs 50 mins. Oh the horror !

Except it's not 30 minutes extra, try nearer 2 hours extra

Well to suggest that any group keeping up with published timings should let another group through is plain daft.

If a group is on time, never in the history of the game are they expected to stand aside. The whole point of timings is to either adhere to them or get penalised.
Playing quicker than the advertised timings doesn't get anyone anywhere, if they think it's too slow they should bring it up with whoever sets the timings.

Wow.
So letting a faster group through when you are looking for a ball is ''plain daft''

 

[Neilds]

Except it's not 30 minutes extra, try nearer 2 hours extra

Wow.
So letting a faster group through when you are looking for a ball is ''plain daft''

Blimey Bob, for someone who declares themselves out really quickly when someone disagrees with you, you aren't half dragging this one out!

 

[Slab]

4 hours for our two ball this morning, c’est la vie!

 

[nickjdavis]

Has anyone's club ever undertaken a proper study of pace of play? By proper I don't mean just looking at when a group started and when a group finished play...I mean actually tracking a group (or more than one group) of players movements round a golf course by such means as a GPS the like of which walkers might use?

About 10 years ago I got hold of a few GPS units, set them up to log a players position on the course every 20 seconds or so and gave them to a few golfers spread out through the field, they didn't have to do anything, just give me the watches back at the then of the round and tell me their perception of whether it was a slow round or not.

When the data was analysed we were able to split the typical time to play a round into three distinct sections...actually playing the game...so the time taken to play and move around the course, standing around doing nothing time (whether it be on the tee or mid-hole) and the time taken to walk between holes. If I remember correctly, a typical round included a total of 23 minutes walking time between holes, 7-25 mins standing around doing nothing and the remaining time actually playing shots and moving from tee to green and...irrespective of whether a round took 4 hours or 5 hours, the perception of pace of play directly correlated to the amount of time a player stood around waiting to play....so you had some 4 hour rounds, where a group that were particularly quick were waiting on many shots and perceived the round as being slow. The groups behind them, maybe not quite so quick, perceived the pace to be acceptable or good. Likewise there were some rounds closer to 4hrs 40 mins played where the pace of play was noted as being good...simply because the standing around doing nothing time was negligible in comparison to

We were also able to use the data to determine the typical time it took to play each and every hole....our second hole for example is a long par 3....typically took 11 minutes to play...our tee intervals were 8 minutes apart....so it was no real surprise once you were four or five tee times in to a comp that there was a wait on the 2nd tee....and another on the 4th tee (another par 3 that had even more danger and typically took a group 13 minutes to play). Couple this with the fact that the data revealed that groups were teeing off on the first early and you can see that there would be a recipe for extreme slow movement around the course through the early holes.

Now, this might all seem obvious and there may be some of you reading this thinking...well I could have told you that would happen...but the point is, until you have the data to back up such reasoning, you don't have a leg to stand on to try to educate golfers into better practices (not teeing off early) or to try to get the golf club management to change tee intervals or introduce other measures to assist. Its no use relying on Joe Bloggs whinging in the bar about how slow it was to build an argument for change, clubs need to be pro-active in gathering data that can assist them in solving slow play issues. People can sit there and pontificate about slow/fast players all they like, but fundamentally, the general pace of play around a golf course is largely governed by the physical layout and design. It is only once you solve issues that may be arising from the course layout, that you can then go on and address issues with individual golfers who may have a reputation for being slow.

With modern smartphone technology and GPS logging apps being readily available it would not be difficult to undertake a similar study which would shed far more light on where a club (which has a chronic pace of play issue)

 

[Mandofred]

Has anyone's club ever undertaken a proper study of pace of play? By proper I don't mean just looking at when a group started and when a group finished play...I mean actually tracking a group (or more than one group) of players movements round a golf course by such means as a GPS the like of which walkers might use?

About 10 years ago I got hold of a few GPS units, set them up to log a players position on the course every 20 seconds or so and gave them to a few golfers spread out through the field, they didn't have to do anything, just give me the watches back at the then of the round and tell me their perception of whether it was a slow round or not.

When the data was analysed we were able to split the typical time to play a round into three distinct sections...actually playing the game...so the time taken to play and move around the course, standing around doing nothing time (whether it be on the tee or mid-hole) and the time taken to walk between holes. If I remember correctly, a typical round included a total of 23 minutes walking time between holes, 7-25 mins standing around doing nothing and the remaining time actually playing shots and moving from tee to green and...irrespective of whether a round took 4 hours or 5 hours, the perception of pace of play directly correlated to the amount of time a player stood around waiting to play....so you had some 4 hour rounds, where a group that were particularly quick were waiting on many shots and perceived the round as being slow. The groups behind them, maybe not quite so quick, perceived the pace to be acceptable or good. Likewise there were some rounds closer to 4hrs 40 mins played where the pace of play was noted as being good...simply because the standing around doing nothing time was negligible in comparison to

We were also able to use the data to determine the typical time it took to play each and every hole....our second hole for example is a long par 3....typically took 11 minutes to play...our tee intervals were 8 minutes apart....so it was no real surprise once you were four or five tee times in to a comp that there was a wait on the 2nd tee....and another on the 4th tee (another par 3 that had even more danger and typically took a group 13 minutes to play). Couple this with the fact that the data revealed that groups were teeing off on the first early and you can see that there would be a recipe for extreme slow movement around the course through the early holes.

Now, this might all seem obvious and there may be some of you reading this thinking...well I could have told you that would happen...but the point is, until you have the data to back up such reasoning, you don't have a leg to stand on to try to educate golfers into better practices (not teeing off early) or to try to get the golf club management to change tee intervals or introduce other measures to assist. Its no use relying on Joe Bloggs whinging in the bar about how slow it was to build an argument for change, clubs need to be pro-active in gathering data that can assist them in solving slow play issues. People can sit there and pontificate about slow/fast players all they like, but fundamentally, the general pace of play around a golf course is largely governed by the physical layout and design. It is only once you solve issues that may be arising from the course layout, that you can then go on and address issues with individual golfers who may have a reputation for being slow.

With modern smartphone technology and GPS logging apps being readily available it would not be difficult to undertake a similar study which would shed far more light on where a club (which has a chronic pace of play issue)

I like this....a lot. I don't know if I can get off my butt enough to do it though....I'm pretty lazy.