Slow play again

[chellie]

And there we have it, over a century and slow play has never been solved. My opinion, and a very unpopular one it is, get rid of playing through. Play at the pace of the course then there would be no inclination to pester and harass the group in front and everyone would be more relaxed. Pesonally never played a round if I did not have at least 6 hours from turning up free to play the round etc. Normally I was safely back home after 5 hours including a drink but the time was there if I needed it. On a slow round, just enjoyed being out and about in the fresh air with mates.

As I have said, the slowest rounds I have played and have been on forum Help for Heroes Days and on the old GM organised forum meets. Had a great time at all of them but saw no sign of the 3.5 hour rounds mentioned here.

Try being a group of ladies or a mixed group behind men. We have a very good sized ladies section but still so many men won't let you through.

 

[sunshine]

In his book The Complete Golfer published in 1905, Harry Vardon advised readers as follows…

If from any cause whatever you are playing a very slow game, don't miss an opportunity of inviting the couple behind you to pass. It will please them, and will be far more comfortable for you. But if your match is behind a slow one, do not be offensive in pressing upon the match in front by making rude remarks and occasionally playing when they are within range. You do not know what troubles they are enduring. Remember the story of the old player, who, on a ball being driven past him by the couple behind, sent his caddie with his card to the offender, and with it the message, "Mr. Blank presents his compliments, and begs to say that though he may be playing slowly he can play a devil of a lot more slowly if he likes!"

He also had a great dislike of 4BBB for it being inherently very slow (and for a whole variety of other golfing reasons) and so to be avoided.

This new foursome is also a selfish game, because it is generally played with too little regard for the convenience and feelings of other golfers on the links. It is very slow, and couples coming up behind, who do not always care to ask to be allowed to go through, are often irritated beyond measure as they wait while four balls are played through the green in front of them, and eight putts are taken on the putting green. The constant waiting puts them off their game and spoils their day.

If you look back into the archives at the start of this forum, the first ever thread from 1905 was about slow play and ran to 35 pages.

The second thread was about declining standards of dress code.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If you look back into the archives at the start of this forum, the first ever thread from 1905 was about slow play and ran to 35 pages.

The second thread was about declining standards of dress code.

Vardon advised braces and a good fitting jacket essential…belts no good for the swing…

 

[GB72]

Quicker players would still pester the group in front and become irritated. Slower players who are normally considerate and let groups through would feel harrassed.

I know it's just an opinion, and I'm really sorry I don't want to be rude. But I can't help laughing because it's one of the worst ideas I've heard on this forum

I get where you are coming from and I guess as a person who has some issues I am more conscious of the situation I am in on the course and can find it stressful. Removing the ability to play through would alleviate that but, as mentioned, that is personal to me and not something I expect others to agree with.

That said, the idea that slow play can be addressed by self policing and etiquette clearly does not work and has not done in a century and I am always concerned that pace of play can cause serious confrontation on the course.

The only way I would promote my feelings on the matter to a wider audience would be that the current system does not work and so removing it would force clubs to look at alternative ways of dealing with it be it by only passing on the instructions of a marshal, setting times of day for people who wanted to play at a more relaxed pace or anything else that people could come up with.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Acceptance is the answer to many of the problems of the game of life, never mind the game of golf.

And, according to Vardon, as slow play has been an issue, and an unresolved one at that, for at least 120yrs - I tend to simply accept that no amount of my ranting, raving or berating others will change things - and know that it is best for my own peace of mind to just stay in the moment, to enjoy and be grateful for what I have.

That does not stop me from having my ‘moments’ on the course, but I try and see them for what they are and just put aside any resentments and irritations arising from slow play - at least until the round is done…

 

[Backsticks]

Both playing through, and forbidding playing through, both have their place.

Playing through works in the uncongested course, where there is clear water in front of the slower group, but also, what is normally missed, behind the faster group. This is when slower groups should let a faster group through.

But that is probably the rarer case. In a full ir close to full course, letting a faster group through, while good for that single group, is counter productive overall. Letting a group through in itself takes time, and this ripples back to all groups behind. On a full course this is disastrous. The slower group, to let one faster group through, must step aside and wait. Thus further increasing the time of their round. Slowing all behind even more than had they just kept playing. So while one group might profit by playing through, many groups lose, and not letting through, even though their is a widening gap in front of the slower group, is the better option.
The faster players would do well to recognise this, and cool any frustration.

 

[GB72]

Both playing through, and forbidding playing through, both have their place.

Playing through works in the uncongested course, where there is clear water in front of the slower group, but also, what is normally missed, behind the faster group. This is when slower groups should let a faster group through.

But that is probably the rarer case. In a full ir close to full course, letting a faster group through, while good for that single group, is counter productive overall. Letting a group through in itself takes time, and this ripples back to all groups behind. On a full course this is disastrous. The slower group, to let one faster group through, must step aside and wait. Thus further increasing the time of their round. Slowing all behind even more than had they just kept playing. So while one group might profit by playing through, many groups lose, and not letting through, even though their is a widening gap in front of the slower group, is the better option.
The faster players would do well to recognise this, and cool any frustration.

We certainly used to have issues on Saturdays. Busy course full of 3 and 4 balls and you used to get first team players trying to speed round 9 holes in 2 balls before heading to away matches.

 

[SteveJay]

I don't consider myself to be slow, but not especially fast, and I also take the view that I am outside, enjoying the scenery and the company, and the round will take however long it takes.

What does annoy me though, and obviously contributes to slow play, is players waiting for greens to clear when they have just hit their drive less than they have left. Played last week and one guy was waiting for the green to clear after his drive on a par 5. Suffice to say he hit it about 100 yards short of the green.

Also, I am not that keen on being let through. It's put pressure on by the group watching you tee off, and then immediately puts more pressure on your group as they are right behind you, at least for that hole.

 

[harpo_72]

Both playing through, and forbidding playing through, both have their place.

Playing through works in the uncongested course, where there is clear water in front of the slower group, but also, what is normally missed, behind the faster group. This is when slower groups should let a faster group through.

But that is probably the rarer case. In a full ir close to full course, letting a faster group through, while good for that single group, is counter productive overall. Letting a group through in itself takes time, and this ripples back to all groups behind. On a full course this is disastrous. The slower group, to let one faster group through, must step aside and wait. Thus further increasing the time of their round. Slowing all behind even more than had they just kept playing. So while one group might profit by playing through, many groups lose, and not letting through, even though their is a widening gap in front of the slower group, is the better option.
The faster players would do well to recognise this, and cool any frustration.

A full course is a full course, it’s a bit ridiculous to expect to play through every one. Having said that I will go through 3 or 4 groups with minimal delay .. what I am saying is if there is a gap I have the right to get there. If there is no gap then we know it’s a slow day.
I left Richings Park Langley because of their propensity to allow slow people on the course and make rounds last 5hrs .. the membership shouldn’t be forced to play at inconvenient times due to large bookings of occasional golfers.
Back in the day you were not allowed to just wander onto a course if you had a set of clubs .. you needed to have had the Pro’s sign off ..

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Vardon advised braces and a good fitting jacket essential…belts no good for the swing…

My Grandfather, who played in the Vardon era, swore by a good fitting pair of tackity boots [or bits as they were known by in Scotland at that time]

 

[Backsticks]

A full course is a full course, it’s a bit ridiculous to expect to play through every one. Having said that I will go through 3 or 4 groups with minimal delay .. what I am saying is if there is a gap I have the right to get there. If there is no gap then we know it’s a slow day.
I left Richings Park Langley because of their propensity to allow slow people on the course and make rounds last 5hrs .. the membership shouldn’t be forced to play at inconvenient times due to large bookings of occasional golfers.
Back in the day you were not allowed to just wander onto a course if you had a set of clubs .. you needed to have had the Pro’s sign off ..

I am not really saying that, although agree with you point that playing through a full field is pointless.

I am pointing out that even if there is a gap of a hole, but if the field is full behind that, it is better to just let that gap in front of the slower group open more, than to let a group through. The players behind will probably be in uproar, watching the i creasing gap. But it is in theor collective benefit to let that happen, rather then to let a group through into it.

 

[D-S]

I am not really saying that, although agree with you point that playing through a full field is pointless.

I am pointing out that even if there is a gap of a hole, but if the field is full behind that, it is better to just let that gap in front of the slower group open more, than to let a group through. The players behind will probably be in uproar, watching the i creasing gap. But it is in theor collective benefit to let that happen, rather then to let a group through into it.

I profoundly dsagree with this. If for example a slow four ball have a three or even four hole gap in front of them after 10 or 11 holes, despite teeing off 10 minutes behind the group then they should be politely informed that they should stand aside for two or more groups to play through. This way 2 or 3 groups will have a quicker round, the very slow four ball are incentiveised maybe to play a bit quicker next time or if they are 'just enjoying their day' well they have an extra 10 or 15 minutes of enjoyment. If the gap increases again and they cannot maintain pace then this should happen again if a few holes time.

 

[sunshine]

as a person who has some issues I am more conscious of the situation I am in on the course and can find it stressful. Removing the ability to play through would alleviate that but, as mentioned, that is personal to me and not something I expect others to agree with.

If it stresses you out when people are waiting for you, do you not find it easlier to just let the faster group through?

Or is it the opposite, where you struggle when slower groups call you through? This is what happens to me. However well I'm playing, I turn into a complete hacker when a group calls me through... I know I'm not alone

 

[Backsticks]

I profoundly dsagree with this. If for example a slow four ball have a three or even four hole gap in front of them after 10 or 11 holes, despite teeing off 10 minutes behind the group then they should be politely informed that they should stand aside for two or more groups to play through. This way 2 or 3 groups will have a quicker round, the very slow four ball are incentiveised maybe to play a bit quicker next time or if they are 'just enjoying their day' well they have an extra 10 or 15 minutes of enjoyment. If the gap increases again and they cannot maintain pace then this should happen again if a few holes time.

You are picking a very extreme, or even, never occurring real world case of a group losing 6 holes on the grouo ahead in a round.

The more typical is a hole per nine maybe. And granted, that does come to 25 minutes or so, where groups behind them will be waiting on most shots on the back nine, and never gaining the 'free air' they prize. Even if that wait is only a minute or so per shot.

It is in this more normal case that slowing the slow group further, to let a play through, delays every group behind them, other than the group let through and there ist really the space to let more than one group through anyway).

Look at it another way - you want a slower group off the course as quickly as possible, not increasing their round time, with further ripple delay to all groupsbehind them.

 

[D-S]

You are picking a very extreme, or even, never occurring real world case of a group losing 6 holes on the grouo ahead in a round.

The more typical is a hole per nine maybe. And granted, that does come to 25 minutes or so, where groups behind them will be waiting on most shots on the back nine, and never gaining the 'free air' they prize. Even if that wait is only a minute or so per shot.

It is in this more normal case that slowing the slow group further, to let a play through, delays every group behind them, other than the group let through and there ist really the space to let more than one group through anyway).

Look at it another way - you want a slower group off the course as quickly as possible, not increasing their round time, with further ripple delay to all groupsbehind them.

No, your solution allows the slowest group out on the course to set the pace for everyone else (that can be 4.5, 5, 5.5 or longer - this is just wrong.
It’s simple if you can’t keep pace, keep on letting people through, it will slow the ‘slow’ group down (although they have the option to speed up if they want to) but if they enjoy pottering and ‘smelling the roses’ it’s better for them and it will enable faster groups to play at their pace.
If you want to play at a leisurely pace, great, have at it. Just respect the long queue behind you.

 

[Backsticks]

No, your solution allows the slowest group out on the course to set the pace for everyone else (that can be 4.5, 5, 5.5 or longer - this is just wrong.
It’s simple if you can’t keep pace, keep on letting people through, it will slow the ‘slow’ group down (although they have the option to speed up if they want to) but if they enjoy pottering and ‘smelling the roses’ it’s better for them and it will enable faster groups to play at their pace.
If you want to play at a leisurely pace, great, have at it. Just respect the long queue behind you.

That simply wont happen. If the slower group is on the 9th, and all 12 groups behind are faster than them, then they should sit it out for a couple of hours until a same oace or slower group is behind them. No.

And you are missing the maybe unpalatable but nevertheless true point, that letting someone through is favouring tge let-through over all others behind them. A significant net loss.

On the point of not accepting a slowest group setting the pace for all - the 'they are slow, how dare they determine that I cannot play at the pace I chose, they are holding me up and wasting my time' line is just faster player arrogant entitlement in my view.

 

[D-S]

On the point of not accepting a slowest group setting the pace for all - the 'they are slow, how dare they determine that I cannot play at the pace I chose, they are holding me up and wasting my time' line is just faster player arrogant entitlement in my view.

And it is incredibly selfish in my view.
Just like a tractor on a country lane every now and again pulls in to let the queue of traffic behind, this is sensible good manners.
Those who are happy to have an empty course in front of them and a queue of golfers behind them and won’t do anything about it are arrogant, rude and selfish.

 

[bobmac]

On the point of not accepting a slowest group setting the pace for all - the 'they are slow, how dare they determine that I cannot play at the pace I chose, they are holding me up and wasting my time' line is just faster player arrogant entitlement in my view.

If only the slow players were behind the faster players, then they could all play at the pace they choose.
Has anyone heard of ''millionaires golf''

 

[nickjdavis]

But that is probably the rarer case. In a full ir close to full course, letting a faster group through, while good for that single group, is counter productive overall. Letting a group through in itself takes time, and this ripples back to all groups behind. On a full course this is disastrous. The slower group, to let one faster group through, must step aside and wait.

It doesnt take long to let a group through and it doesnt have to have a negative effect on other groups behind, if done properly.

If searching for a ball, wave the group behind up, once they have tee'd off, you can play your second shots, wait for them to reach you, invite them to play their second shots, all walk to the green together. Let them putt out and by the time you've finished putting out they will no doubt have teed off and be on their way down the next fairway. Far quicker than you waving them through whilst looking for a ball and then waiting for them to complete the hole before playing your second shots.

 

[clubchamp98]

If only the slow players were behind the faster players, then they could all play at the pace they choose.
Has anyone heard of ''millionaires golf''

Yes those millionaires don’t have a job to go to.

Your idea in principle is good but just not practical.
Imo of course.