Slope index - will we ever see it?

[viscount17]

Picked up on this is another post but decided not to run it there.

Is it long past time that we had a realistic way of making a proper judgement between courses?

Take today. Breadsall Priory course is 5875 yds of hilly fairways featuring severe side slopes and lots of bunkers. It is Par 70 SS 68.

My course, Wyboston Lakes is actually longer at 5915 (so it says - but I would never have believed it after today) very flat, only a handful of bunkers though lots of water. It too is Par 70 SS 68.

In no way are they comparable. In my view Breadsall is easily 3 shots harder.

Don't get me wrong, I played rubbish today and deserved the low score - not the course, me.

But the fact remains Par and SS alone cannot and do not adjust the balance between courses.

 

[NWJocko]

I am by no means an expert on matters handicap but is this not what the CSS looks to achieve?

i.e. your handicap is measured against CSS so, if your course is "easier" this will be reflected in everyones score and then your handicap should be adjusted according to CSS?

 

[Bigfoot]

I agree totally with OP.

When I play in France against our twin town at Belle Dune, they add shots to our handicaps because of the slope.

At Cognac GC, there is a very large board on the way to the first tee where you convert your handicap and the tee you are going to use to give your handicap for the day.

We seem to believe that standard scratch and css deal with the difficulty of the course after the event.

It would need a lot of work to judge all the golf courses in the country but handicaps would be a bit more portable.

 

[viscount17]

No, CSS can adjust the handicaps of players from the same course to conditions on the day on the course they are playing but it cannot balance handicaps that are earned on a wide variety of courses.

Quite simply a handicap of 20 from an easy course does not equal a 20 from a tough course.

 

[NWJocko]

No, CSS can adjust the handicaps of players from the same course to conditions on the day on the course they are playing but it cannot balance handicaps that are earned on a wide variety of courses.

Quite simply a handicap of 20 from an easy course does not equal a 20 from a tough course.

But if your course is 3 shots easier on average, CSS will regularly be 3 shots lower (say 65 v 68). Therefore your 20 handicap will (theoretically) shoot 85 round yours v 88 round the other, which should be in line with everyone else?

Or am I missing the point?

 

[AuburnWarrior]

Surely though, isn't it all about course management?

Whenever you play a new course you always find holes that you'd play differently the next time. That's why pros will play the course a few times before the main event.

I'm sure you'd play some of the holes differently again and it'd probably save you a few shots.

Plus, if the greens were quicker than your course, you might even change your putter. I believe Faldo had a putter that he only used at Augusta.

 

[Tiger]

The main difference for me between courses is the greens. Generally speaking if you are striking the ball fairly well you'll be ok tee to green but if the greens are faster with more break it's a whole different ball game. I think the problem is that from my understanding SSS is calculated predominantly based on tee to green and the trouble I find is usually adjusting to the green.

 

[rosecott]

The main difference for me between courses is the greens. Generally speaking if you are striking the ball fairly well you'll be ok tee to green but if the greens are faster with more break it's a whole different ball game. I think the problem is that from my understanding SSS is calculated predominantly based on tee to green and the trouble I find is usually adjusting to the green.

On the nail, or +1

 

[viscount17]

No, CSS can adjust the handicaps of players from the same course to conditions on the day on the course they are playing but it cannot balance handicaps that are earned on a wide variety of courses.

Quite simply a handicap of 20 from an easy course does not equal a 20 from a tough course.

But if your course is 3 shots easier on average, CSS will regularly be 3 shots lower (say 65 v 68). Therefore your 20 handicap will (theoretically) shoot 85 round yours v 88 round the other, which should be in line with everyone else?

Or am I missing the point?

The 20 from the easier course should play to net par on his course not 3 under. Playing the harder course he would shoot 3 over.

Similarly the 20 from the harder course should play to net par on his course but 3 under on the easier course.

The issue is whether handicaps travel.

 

[sweatysock41]

I'm reading this with some interest given that what the OP was describing and I have to say that to some extent I agree is that the two courses are totally different tee to green. Wyboston is fairly flat and Breadsall today was anything but.

A course where you are playing of flat fairways generally you would expect to be easier than one which is about the same length but where you are lucky if you have a flat lie and greens that are perched on some ridiculous places yet both have the same SSS of 68.

Is the SSS based on distance tee to green only or are other factors taken into consideration? - I'm asking because I genuinely do not know how the SSS is calculated.

 

[rosecott]

Go to the EGU website, for Golf Clubs, course rating - this will tell you how courses are currently rated. Your course may not have been rated under the current criteria.

 

[cheezburga]

The point I think that has not yet been picked up is that SSS (and therefore CSS) is the rating of course difficulty in respect of a scratch player - hence the name. The slope rating is a measure to rate the additional difficulty for a bogey player (18H/C) as compared to a scratch golfer. Apparently the features of course layout & set up that vary the difficulty for a scratch player, are not necessarily the same as that affect the difficulty for a bogey player. More to the point, slope rating is a different thing to course rating.

I just know that big numbers on slope means trouble .

 

[Smiffy]

Go and play Beauport Park in Hastings.
One of the toughest tracks I have ever played.
If you play to your handicap around there I'll pay your green fee.

 

[upsidedown]

Having played under the slope index system now for the past 4 years I feel it's the better system if you like playing lots of different courses and be competitive in Opens, inter club etc.
This is because a players handicap index is based on how easy or hard their course is. So when two players from a easy and hard course play at a different course their handicaps will be worked out on the hardness of the course they're playing, thus levelling the playing field

I also feel it gives a better reflection of your game as for your handicap every card can count, whether it's in a comp or just a bounce game.

This happens because every course is rated and on that course the difference between tees is all also rated , if different tees are indeed used.

 

[Tiger]

Go and play Beauport Park in Hastings.
One of the toughest tracks I have ever played.
If you play to your handicap around there I'll pay your green fee.

So Smiffy when are we going

 

[oltimer]

An example for consideration,
Two 12 hcappers left us and moved to a newly opened championship course, longer and more difficult, their submitted cards acquired them 16 + 17 hcaps.
They returned later to play in one of our Opens off a correct 16/17 hcap whilst still capable of playing to 12 at our much easier Course.
Yes I know they should have transferred their hcaps to their new club, as it would have taken them 40+ comps at a 0.1 increase to get their hcaps to a level they could play to at this more difficult Course I can see why they didn`t.
not grumbling just stating the facts.

 

[USER1999]

What they need to do is re-visit the layout of all golf clubs, and standardise them, so they are all the same.

 

[gripitripit]

Quite simply a handicap of 20 from an easy course does not equal a 20 from a tough course.

Got that right. I have scored low 90's @ Wybo but cannot get anywhere near that at Menzie which has hills,blind tee shots,bunkers and ditches all over the place..!!

 

[Oddsocks]

i do think we should see this introduced, its the first ive heard about slope index, but it should be brought in. I was going to start a thread about what you look to score when visiting an away course thats seems harder, but this is sort of along the same lines.

I dont see how CSS & SSS bare anything on how a club golfer off cat2/cat3/cat4 will score. you can come away from a course having played well yet failed to score,

Im assuming slope index is grated in relation to category of HC?

 

[USER1999]

Slope isn't graded by handicap. That would be too difficult. It kind of takes h/cap into consideration, as it is a multiplier.